Interviewee: Interviewer: Date: Category: Status: Tape location:

McCulloch, Clarice Kristin Collins February 3, 1999 World War II Open Box #23

Collins: Today is February 3, 1999. Today I will be interviewing Clarice McCulloch on her experiences during WWII as a dietician in Pittsburgh. The interviewer is Kristin Collins. Okay, we’re ready to roll. You wanted to tell me about sabotage with the US Steel and Westinghouse. McCulloch: It was rumored that Westinghouse Corporation or one of the Steel mills could be blown up by foreign spies within the country. For this reason plans were made in the hospitals. I worked for one of the five hospitals of the University of Pittsburgh. Each hospital had a signed patient area -- where hospital patients could be moved out and the victims of the explosion could be moved in. A demonstration was enacted by students of the University of Pittsburgh who were made up with make-up depicting a variety of injuries. A group of these patients or victims was sent to each hospital -- on arrival the patients were sorted by the MD’s -- labeled and sent to the appropriate place. Minor injuries were sent to the first aid located in our nurses residence and there they were checked over and released. Others were sent to the surgery and the third group was sent to the patient designated area in the hospital. Dietary had an inventory of food always on hand for an emergency of this kind and they set up trays and delivered them to the victims (injured) replacing the hospital patients who had been transferred to another unit. This demonstration was over by 3 pm. Collins:

Okay. So it was just a drill.

McCulloch: So, that we’d have an idea of what might happen. Fortunately, we never had the situation. Collins:

And you also wanted to talk about black-outs -- you can tell me about those.

McCulloch: The nurses residence building was situated beside the hospital. Persons not on duty at the hospital were designated as wardens and they were assigned to an area in the hospital or outside on the grounds. Black curtains were pulled in some areas with a limited amount of low lighting in the hallways. When the black-out was announced with the ringing of the sirens all lights in the city were turned off. The wardens walked their assigned beats until the all clear sign was given. One exception was during one black-out...one whole stairwell of the hospital was lit up... they forgot to turn the lights out...it looked like a sore thumb sticking out into the darkness. I don’t know if the hospital was ....I can’t think of the word... Collins:

Reprimanded for that.

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McCulloch: Reprimanded, yes. Each warden wore a hat and as I remembered and carried a club. Collins: So, you really had to do what you were supposed to do. And that’s it for blackouts then. Rationing... McCulloch: The main problems to be dealt with in a dietary department during rationing of the food were meat, butter, mayonnaise and animal fat. Food stamps were given for these items and a designated number of food stamps were given to each hospital. Fish was served twice a week and chicken every Sunday and both incorporated with the food -- such as pasta or in salad. The dairy industry was fighting the margarine or Oleo, as we called it...industry. Because Oleo was not regarded as a healthy food, but as a substitute for butter, therefore, we were not allowed to color the oleo if it was served in public places. White oleo was served once a day in the cafeteria and colored oleo was used in cooking. A color pill came with each pound of oleo. After the war, fish consumption was decreased and spam the most unfavorable food served in abundance to the Armed Forces was never served. After the war the government was left with a surplus of dried whole eggs and what a better place to give them to than to the hospitals. The dried eggs were mixed with frozen whole eggs...fresh whole eggs in many different amounts, but the people returning from the war could recognize the dried eggs in everything except the baked products...and we returned the eggs to the government with our blessing. Other products rationed were gasoline... A, B, and C rations books...which were based on the needs of a car...shoes, coffee and nylon hose were also rationed. White hose and white shoes, however, or the white oxfords were not rationed because these were the clothes that were worn by the people in the hospitals. Rations books contained stamps which were given to the markets and stores and were passed on to the government -- this involved a lot of paper work which made it hard for some of the merchants. The Episcopal church which was in our vicinity volunteered to can foods for the hospital and this project was manned by volunteers. The government provided two large pressure cookers and the hospital furnished one half gallon glass jars -- not metal and they canned tomatoes, peaches and other vegetables and the food was donated. Collins: Okay. I have a question about the rationing. Did the hospital have to have coupon books too? McCulloch: Yes, they had to have then too. Collins:

Okay. And how did rationing effect you personally?

McCulloch: Well, we had to figure out the use of the stamps...that’s why we had to serve the fish and the chicken because they were not rationed and we used them so that we could cover our menus with protein foods. Collins:

Did you have problems at home..in your normal life...getting things?

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McCulloch: Well, yes. My mother lived alone and at first we handed our rationing books into the hospital, but then they gave them back to us. So I gave her my ration book. It was difficult for one person, but she got along fine with the two ration books. Collins:

And then you wanted to tell me about transportation.

McCulloch: Labor market first. Collins:

Okay, labor market.

McCulloch: Women joined the work force and factories and in the Saturday Evening Post this was represented by a cover which had Rosie the Riveter on the cover. And in hospitals men and women both left for industry with more money leaving less skilled workers behind which presented problems in absenteeism and the quality of work. I hired a tray girl and after an hours work she was so inefficient I gave her 50 cents and sent her on her way. Industry jobs were fine, but the hard work injured some of the women permanently. Some very good workers preferred to stay out of industry for this reason and they were the skeleton workforce in our dietary departments. Volunteers were everywhere -- the volunteer lady who was responsible for the volunteer workers in the dietary department of our hospital was from the family who owned Pittsburgh Pirates baseball team. Two socialites friends manned our salad preparation units three days a week and did a terrific job making large fruit salads and large vegetable salads and the small salads. One of the ladies husbands was an MD and he thought it was a big joke that he hired a cook at home for her and here she was preparing food in the hospital. Collins:

Did they have shortages with nurses and doctors and things?

McCulloch: oh, yes. One poor soul volunteer looked down her nose at our dietary personnel causing some difficulties and we assigned her to prepare grapefruit halves for the following morning for breakfast and set her in the corner of the kitchen by herself. Men were almost impossible to find for heavy mopping and cleaning -- 25 cents would furnish a nights lodging at the shelter for homeless men and the dieticians gave many quarter to have a cleaner or mopper for the next day. They worked one pay period and then drank their salary up in hard liquor only to move on their way. One Sunday morning a one eyed pot washer came to me and said that he couldn’t work any longer because he was drunk. I suggested that it best if he go wherever and sleep it off.. Dieticians worked split shifts to cover the three meals a day...we had one day off a week and managed short of personnel when on duty. The MDs in the hospitals worked long hours and nurses were always in demand. Residents and intern doctors raced passed the kitchen door so the dieticians couldn’t drag them in to empty the produce crates of food coming in -which were put into buckets and then put into the refrigerator. Even though food was limited we tried hard not to be wasteful, however, we could always fix a guest tray for a soldier or sailor who’s wife had just delivered a baby. Collins:

Okay. And you wanted to tell me about transportation. Is that...transportation

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was it difficult because of the gasoline rationing? McCulloch: Public transportation was great... everyone used it, making it profitable. People traveled in the city and into the city from the outlying districts. Every other Sunday evening I traveled forty miles into the city on a gray hound bus made up of lay people from small towns. We became friends and enjoyed our trip -- people stood in the aisles and one Sunday night a group from a wedding reception boarded the bus with all their instruments and they squeezed in and people took it all in stride. Trains traveled for the military and lay people -- wives and sweethearts sitting on suitcases riding miles to meet a loved one. I traveled during the war from Pittsburgh to Washington to Durham, North Carolina to see a new nephew. I was advised on leaving Pittsburgh to tip a porter a dollar and he would give me a seat on a train and to take a packed lunch. I boarded the only train that I encountered on the whole trip where there were empty and plenty of seats -- food was carried and passed on the trains for sale all the way so I pitched the remaining food in my lunch bucket into a trash can in Washington. Collins:

So, you were lucky.

McCulloch: I sure was. The coach on the Southern Railroad must have been built in the 1800's with its straight back that extended above my head. Only Marcia Davenport’s The Valley of Decision kept my mind off the back of the seat. Small towns set up food kitchens and when a train pulled in and stopped the ladies would bring home cooked food to the military men and women. Rivers were busy and barges hauling coal, oil and gasoline for fuel for transportation and for manufacturing especially steel and the small PT boats which traveled from Pittsburgh down the Ohio river to the Mississippi river to New Orleans where they were shipped out where needed. Everyone got into the spirit and made the most of circumstances with little complaining. One of my friends went to New York City to marry her fiancee only to have him ship out the morning of the planned wedding. She returned and wore her suit to the dietetic meetings as her wedding suit -- her fiancee returned and they were married. We had fun...we went to movies, concerts, stage plays... went to the city to shop, bowled and had parties for a change of pace. One thing we enjoyed was going to the Hotel Henry in Pittsburgh where in a large room full of round tables we could drink beer and listen to a pianist play and sing old and current songs and we enjoyed having the military join in maybe for a solo. The USO was close to the largest Pennsylvania Railroad Train Station and volunteers helped served food and entertain the military. We wore shortened skirts to conserve on material for the war effort...gave home permanents and played bridge waiting for the war to be over. After the war the GI educational program gave millions an education. I attended classes at the University of Pittsburgh with some of these people -- they were very serious -- some attending classes after a long days work. Later you would hear of very successful men and women who took advantage of this opportunity. The program was profitable because it produced people with better jobs who payed more money back to the government in increased taxes. Collins: Okay. I have some questions for you. I’m going to start kind of at the beginning -- I’m going back again, but I wanted to know where you were born and where you grew up? World War II / 0956_McCulloch July 1, 2009

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McCulloch: I was born in Wellsville, Ohio -- which is 40 miles from Pittsburgh. Collins:

Okay, and when?

McCulloch: I was born in 1914. Collins:

What made you decide to become a dietician? How did you end up in Pittsburgh?

McCulloch: Well, my father was a doctor -- an MD and I liked to cook and I was interested in the dietary end of it so I just put the two together. And he didn’t want me to do it. He thought hospital work was too hard, but I won out. [chuckles] Collins:

That’s good. Where did you go to school?

McCulloch: I graduated from Ohio State University. I took an internship at Miami Valley Hospital in Dayton, Ohio -- and then I went I went into the field of dietetics. Collins:

Where did you work in Pittsburgh? What hospital?

McCulloch: I worked at McGee Women’s Hospital in Pittsburgh. Collins:

When did you come to that hospital -- do know a date for that?

McCulloch: Yes, I came there in 1939. I worked 40 years at the hospital and I know that isn’t the thing to do, stay at one place, we had many changes at the hospital. During my last 17 years I worked with Stouffers Foods Corporation and I had two bosses then -- the hospital and Stouffers. Collins:

What did you get for wages at the hospital?

McCulloch: Oh, when I started out I was paid $75 dollars a month with room, housekeeping, meals and the laundering of starched uniforms. And we thought that that was very, very low, however, we never took into consideration the money value of the room and board and laundering of uniforms. It really was worth more than $75 dollars a month. Collins: That’s great...that sounds interesting. When did you graduate? Did you say when you graduated from college? McCulloch: I graduated from Ohio State in 1936. Collins:

And then you were in Pittsburgh in 1939.

McCulloch: No, I went to Dayton, Ohio in 1937 -- I took the years internship. World War II / 0956_McCulloch July 1, 2009

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Collins:

At Miami...

McCulloch: Valley Hospital. And then I went to Canton, Ohio and worked for a year and a half and then I went to Pittsburgh. Collins:

Okay. Do you know what year that was?

McCulloch: What? Collins:

What year that was?

McCulloch: That I went to Pittsburgh? I went there in 1939. Collins: Okay. What were you doing when Pearl Harbor was attacked? Do you know? Or how did you hear about it? McCulloch: Well, I heard of it in the hospital -- I was working and somebody came in with the news. Collins:

And what did you think of that?

McCulloch: Well, we thought it was, you know, pretty awful. Collins:

Yeah, I guess you would huh?

McCulloch: Everybody did. The thing that we listened to more than anything else was when President Roosevelt declared war. The radios were going all over the hospital where we could listen. That was really more crucial to us then when they bombed Pearl Harbor. Collins:

What was it like living in Pittsburgh at this time?

McCulloch: Well, Pittsburgh was dirty it was an industrial city and they called it smog which was a mixture of fog and smoke and now Pittsburgh’s a beautiful city with more of a computer center than it is a steel mill city. The steel mills have decreased in number and many have moved away. I love Pittsburgh. I lived in the University area and there was a lot going on. It’s where all the concerts were and all the cultural things and ten minutes on the streetcars would bring us downstairs to the stage plays. Collins:

So you went to stage plays and things like that.

McCulloch: Yes, we went to stage plays. It’s funny, but we’d work all day and then we always had some energy to get out and do something. [laughs]

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Collins: Did you do any other things besides stage plays....what kind of things did you do in Pittsburgh, I guess. McCulloch: Well, we went out for entertainment after we worked all day. We didn’t do any volunteer work much beyond our work at the hospital because we felt that that was adequate. We worked long hours and we thought that if we went out and had some fun along with the work that we could produce better. Collins:

Did you ever have any men from the war come into the hospital?

McCulloch: Well, the one’s that came in were the ones whose wives had babies. McGee was a women’s hospital and we always sent them up guest trays. Collins:

You said you were at the hospital for 30 or 40 years?

McCulloch: 40 years...I worked 40 years in one place. If they hadn’t had so many changes I don’t think I would have stayed that long and then it was a well run hospital. And I was forced to stay in that area and I could see no reason to move from hospital to another hospital in the same city. Collins: on?

What were you doing when the war ended? Do you remember what was going

McCulloch: I remember when the war in the European area was ended. The city was a bedlam...I didn’t go downtown...I guess I should have, but it was mobbed in the streets. However, in the suburb where I lived in the Oakland area there were people in the streets and they really celebrated. Collins:

And you don’t remember for the Pacific...when that one ended?

McCulloch: I don’t remember the dates no. We were all so glad that it was over. Collins:

What did you do after the war? Did you stay...

McCulloch: I stayed on at McGee. Collins:

Did you notice the city in Pittsburgh changing at all after that?

McCulloch: Oh yes, it changed traumatically. So the first thing they did was they produced a coal that would produce less smoke and that reduced the smog. Then as time went on people bought gas furnaces and other fuels were used in the city and they cleaned it up. And then there was a Renaissance in Pittsburgh and they did a lot of building. They built at the point which was where the Allegheny and Monongahela rivers joined to make the Ohio river -- they cleaned that World War II / 0956_McCulloch July 1, 2009

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all up and built new buildings and from then on the whole city changed. Collins: Sounds like they really built things up after the war and tried to clean things up a little bit. This kind of goes back a little bit, but did the rationing effect the patients diets a lot? McCulloch: Well, we just had to change. That’s why we served fish and chicken more. And one thing too because we were an Obstetrical hospital that was taken in consideration and we were given proteins. Collins:

And is that why...do you think because it was a women’s hospital that maybe...

McCulloch: Because it was an OB hospital and I think that was why. Of course, they kept the patients longer than they do now, they were in two weeks usually after they had the baby. Collins: And that was probably why there were more shortages with the nurses and doctors -- do you think or... McCulloch: Well, the war decreased the number of doctors. See, we had a Overseas Medical Unit from the University of Pittsburgh that took a large number of our doctors and nurses with them. The ones that were left were the ones that maybe physically couldn’t go or were older. Collins:

It must have been difficult to run a hospital with..

McCulloch: Yes, but the hospital trained good nurses aids that helped the nurses out. Collins: How did things like the black-outs and things like that effect you at home? Where did you live during that time? McCulloch: I lived across the street from the hospital. We had to turn our lights out too. That’s how we sat and watched the light on in the stairwell and we were just itching to call the hospital, but I don’t think we used the phones during the black-out and there we were sitting there with that stairwell staring us. Collins: very often?

Did anything ever happen...Were there ever any close calls or did they have drills

McCulloch: Well, yes. I can’t remember exactly, but they were frequent. And then they had wardens over certain districts everywhere in the city and everybody took it very seriously. Collins:

You didn’t go out...you stayed there and shut off all your lights.

McCulloch: Yes, We shut off all our lights.

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Collins:

Did you ever have to trade any coupons to get food for yourself?

McCulloch: No, I ate my meals at the hospital and... Collins:

And then you gave them to your mother.

McCulloch: Yes, I gave my food ration books to my mother. Collins: You’ve really answered most all of my questions. Is there anything that you would like to add? McCulloch: I don’t think I can think of anything else. Collins: of money?

Did you at the end of the war were you making more money or the same amount

McCulloch: Oh yes. No the salary was sort of interesting in Pittsburgh because, of course, all these people working in the plants were making a lot more money than we were because the salaries in hospitals were kept low. But there again we never valued the room, board and laundry and as time went on the first thing, we were taxed. We were only taxed on our salary, the money that we received, we were not taxed on room, board. And so the first thing the government came in and saw that they had to tax us for the room and then the board and then later we were given money for our meals when Stouffers’s took over we had a paying cafeteria. And so, then we were given money and we purchased our food -- whatever we wanted. Collins:

Did you know anyone involved in the war? Did you have any friends?

McCulloch: Yes, I had a lot of friends that were involved in the war. Collins:

Well, do you have anything else to add?

McCulloch: I don’t think so, do you? Collins: No, I think that you’ve answered everything that I had thought of. You didn’t own a car probably? McCulloch: Oh yes. Oh, yes...I owned a car. My mother had a friend who had a brother that died and so she had two cars on hand -- her brother’s car and hers so she decided to sell hers. She sold it to me for $250 dollars -- a ‘36 Ford in 1943 and I drove that car until 1949. I had the engine completely gone over once and that cost me $150 dollars and when I finally bought a new car and this, of course was a second hand car -- I sold the car for $150 dollars. The value of the dollar had changed from the time I bought the car until I sold it. And then tires were rationed. We put retreads on the tires and you had a fairly decent tire and you didn’t have to wait until you World War II / 0956_McCulloch July 1, 2009

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could purchase a new tire which was rationed. Collins:

Well, that’s good.

McCulloch: And I learned how to change a tire too. I only had to struggle with that once and a young girl came along in her car and she stopped and got out and said she’d changed many a tire -- her husband was in the Armed Forces over in the far east -- and so she helped me change the tire. Collins:

Did you on any trips or you probably couldn’t because of the rationing?

McCulloch: Well, my mother was a bad arthritic and my brother was in medical school down at Duke University and I took her down to see a doctor down there. I was given special gas rationing to go down and I drove that Ford down and drove it back and we made it. Collins:

That would be much easier probably than trying to find a train and a seat huh?

McCulloch: oh, yes. Collins: married?

And you continued to work at the hospital at the end of the war. Were you

McCulloch: No. I was never married. Collins:

What exactly did you do...what was you job at the hospital?

McCulloch: Well, I started in as a clinical dietician who administrated the modified diets, but the hospital administrator put me into the administrative end and I worked in the administrative end most of the time. I worked up from the clinical to administration to the Director of the Dietary Department. And that gave me a variety of jobs and plus the fact that when Stouffers’s came in they designed our kitchen and it was complete...I might as well have gone on another job...you know...to adjust to all of that. Collins:

They made it completely different...changed that many things.

McCulloch: But I enjoyed it because this brought in more of the business end of it and that appealed me -- I like the administration end better.

Collins: Well, I think unless you have anything else to add -- I think I’ve asked everything. Thank you very much and I’m going to shut this off. End of interview World War II / 0956_McCulloch July 1, 2009

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