RE-APPLICATION OF TIME/PROPHECY QUESTION: REAPPLYING PROPHECIES WITH NO TIME ATTACHED

I would like to know what your thoughts are and how you would reply to someone who doesn’t actually ”reapply” time prophecies in the sense that he attaches any time elements to them. He insists that all Bible history, which includes time prophecies, will be repeated literally as it happened in the past. In other words, he has divorced the time factor from the prophecies & just says that they will happen again. This is a new twist for me and I’m not sure exactly how to respond to him. Perhaps you could just respond to me via email, or if you think it may be prudent, address it in a future newsletter as well. Thanks in advance for your help and for upholding the pioneer position so faithfully.

RESPONSE

It is clear that both history and prophecy will be repeated: “In history and prophecy the Word of God portrays the long continued conflict between truth and error. That conflict is yet in progress. Those things which have been will be repeated.” Selected Messages, book 2, 109. “These messages we are to give to the world in publications, in discourses, showing in the line of prophetic history the things that have been and the things that will be.” Selected Messages, book 2, 104–105. That being stated, there is still at least a couple ways to twist the truth of history and prophecy repeating—into error. One as you mentioned is to reapply fulfilled time prophecies. “Let all our brethren and sisters beware of anyone who would set a time for the Lord to fulfill His word in regard to His coming, or in regard to any other promise He has made of special significance.” Testimonies to Ministers, 55. The other twist is to attempt to apply a literal fulfillment. A quote that seems important is as follows: “Historical events, showing the direct fulfillment of prophecy, were set before the people, and the prophecy was seen to be a figurative delineation of events leading down to the close of this earth’s history.” Selected Messages, book 2, 101–102. The passage teaches that prophecy is a “figurative delineation of events.” When prophecy is fulfilled it becomes history. That history is a figurative delineation. Figurative conveys the idea of symbolic. The history that fulfills prophecy is symbolic of future history. Sister White applies this understanding when dealing with history that fulfills prophecy, while also prefiguring the end of the world. Two of the best-known histories she identifies are the destruction of Jerusalem and the French Revolution. She points out that both historical events were fulfillment of prophecy, and both symbolized the end of the world. As she applies these histories to the end of the world, she identifies a symbolic fulfillment—not a literal. Both Jerusalem and France were symbolizing the end of the entire world, not the destruction of literal Jerusalem and another revolution in France.

QUESTION: FUTURE APPLICATIONS IN REVELATION Hello and Greetings Jeff, Thank you for your latest tapes and magazines. I was glad to see that you’re open to future applications in Revelation and that you see how important they are to the church in terms of guidance and revival and reformation. I thought I’d copy you below my brief comments on your latest two tapes that I posted on MSDAOL’s ‘new light’ forum. Many blessings in your ministry to you and your wife and staff and associates. Mark Shipowick..

TOPIC: JEFF PIPPENGER SEES FUTURE APPLICATION OF TRUMPETS AND SEALS A couple days ago I got two of the most recent tapes from Future News, a monthly prophecy magazine and tape ministry that’s being sent to me free of charge. Pippenger is the editor and he’s a good Bible student. We don’t agree on some things but I believe his heart is in the right place and he has some valuable insights. He says in his most recent tapes that he believes now that Sister White placed much of the book of Revelation in the future. (He hasn’t come to see yet I don’t think that there are sections of Daniel that will also be re-fulfilled.) As many of you know, I agree with this. If you study her many statements on the topic, one is hard pressed to hold any other conclusion, but in the past Pippenger has had some trouble seeing this because he tended to accept the Historicist view that these statements where Sister White makes future applications really don’t mean what they say. Pippenger is a cautious person and he knew that she also says that our past experience in the three angels messages will be repeated and she admonishes us to study the 1844 movement to better understand the final gospel work of the three angels. So, what he’s done in these two recent tapes is to show how these prophecies—the trumpets, seal, etc. might be fulfilled in light of the initial fulfillment in the 1844 movement. I have some reservations about his conclusions, but not with his methods. His basic approach is sound. Unfortunately he has no web site. Phyllis Valieres in Madoc handles his Canadian mailing list. [email protected]. He is busy with his ministry so I don’t think he will dialogue here, but I’ll email him a copy of this.

RESPONSE

Brother Shipowick, It is unfortunate that you listened very loosely to my presentations. I still believe that to reapply prophecies which have previously been fulfilled is fanaticism. My understanding of Revelation has not changed. Revelation portrays the end of the world, so most definitely it is identifying issues that are still ahead. You twist my material to make it sound like I have suddenly come to some new position concerning the Spirit of Prophecy and Revelation when you state, “he believes now that Sister White placed much of the book of Revelation in the future”. I know that Sister White’s statements mean what they say, but I also know that you, and others twist them to fit into your own ideas. What I showed in the presentation was that the third woe, not the first six trumpets, or the seals, but simply the third woe, which began in 1844 was prefigured in the previous six trumpets. I did not teach the first six trumpets are repeated, nor did I reject the pioneer understanding of those events as you do. Jeff. “The Scriptures were sufficiently clear to prove that Christ was the Son of God, the Messiah, the ‘light to lighten the gentiles,’ and ‘the glory of thy people Israel;’ but the minds of men were so darkened by the misapplication of Scripture, that, although prophecy was fulfilling before their very eyes, in the teachings and miracles of Christ, yet they failed to recognize the fulfillment of prophecy and remained in darkness. At times they were convinced of the truth, but the humiliation of acknowledging the truth was greater than they would endure.” Signs of the Times, October 17, 1895.

QUESTION: A FUTURE APPLICATION OF THE SEVEN TRUMPETS Hi Jeff,

Hope you have a couple of minutes to read my email and give me a quick reply. In your world travels have you ever come across the theory that the 7 trumpets are literally fulfilled at earth’s end, i.e., 1st: hail and fire mingled with blood 1/3 part of the trees being burnt up; 2nd: 1/3 part of sea becoming blood; 3rd: 1/3 part of rivers and waters made bitter; 4th: 1/3 part sun, moon and stars darkened; 5th Satan given key to bottomless pit and personates Christ 6th: Sunday Law?

I ask because this past Sabbath our Sabbath School teacher laid this outrageous theory on us. Before this, I had thought that his thinking was in line with the pioneers. I know he has 3ABN and possibly he heard it there. This theory is totally new to me and I can’t possibly see how anyone could go along with it. Thought you might have heard of it and what its origin is. Hope all is well with you and Kathy. Would love to come to the December School of the Prophets but right now it doesn’t appear to be possible. God Bless, JC.

RESPONSE

Dear JC, There are several versions of this foolishness out there. We hear it all the time. If it were truth the pioneers were wrong on the trumpets, and Sister White was wrong for endorsing the pioneer position of the trumpets and on and on. The pioneers correctly identified the trumpets as the historical forces that brought down Rome. The first four brought down Western Rome by 476. The fifth and sixth brought down Eastern Rome by 1449 and the papacy by 1798, and the pioneers correctly taught that the seventh trumpet— the 3rd woe— brings down modern Rome—the dragon, beast and false prophet. The seven last plagues identify the punishment for modern Rome, and they are prefigured by the trumpets, but the trumpets, while prefiguring the seven last plagues, are accomplished while probation is open; and the seven plagues take place after probation closes. The second woe was used prophetically by Christ to empower His Millerite people, and in doing so it prefigured the truth that Christ is using the truth if the third woe to empower His remnant people. In order to destroy this work that Christ is accomplishing Satan has introduced a multitude of false understandings on the trumpets. We will cover these things in our upcoming prophecy school. Hope to see you there? Jeff.

REPLY TO RESPONSE Hi Again Jeff, I appreciate your input. Last Sabbath, he began the same nonsense and I just couldn’t hold my peace so I began by going over the pioneer standing on the trumpets and also questioned him on his theory. He was unable to answer my questions which led to others also asking questions. At the end of Sabbath School it was apparent that practically everyone in the class saw no light in his theory, PRAISE GOD, so the decision was made to discontinue his study. GOD IS GOOD! I have been watching the Idaho and California DVD’s and am thoroughly enjoying them. I thank God everyday that here at the end of earth’s history He has raised up a faithful witness to present these messages to us. May God continue to bless you, Jeff, as you faithfully present this message to the world. Hope to see you again soon. JC.

QUESTION: RE-APPLYING THE 1335 Hi Jeff,

I’m sorry to keep bothering you with questions, but the only other people I know who study your material don’t seem to be answering my questions, so you are the only one. If you are very busy and know of someone else less busy who can answer questions on your material, feel free to refer me to them. Question: Does this SOP quote not seem to say that the 1335 has a future application as well as a past?

“One week ago, last Sabbath, we had a very interesting meeting. Brother Hewit from Dead River was there. He came with a message to the effect that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination within a shut door that a woman Jezebel, a prophetess had brought in and he believed that I was that woman, Jezebel. We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged.” Manuscript Releases, volume 16, 208. Thanks and God bless, AS.

RESPONSE

Brother AS, No, it does not say that there is a future application. A friend emailed me yesterday. He had just come across that quote and passed it on to me. You will see our dialogue. Note first what Sister White said concerning the 1850 Nichol’s chart: “I saw the chart-making business was all wrong. It originated with Brother Rhodes and was followed out by Brother Case. Means has been spent in making charts and forming uncouth disgusting images to represent angels and the glorious Jesus. Such things I saw were displeasing to God. I saw that God was in the publishment of the chart by Brother Nichols. I saw that there was a prophecy of this chart in the Bible, and if this chart is designed for God’s people, if it [is] sufficient for one it is for another, and if one needed a new chart painted on a larger scale, all need it just as much.” Manuscript Releases, volume 13, 359. Dear Jeff, As per your statement about re-applying the 1335 at the end, I stumbled across this quote. “We told him [Brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.” Letter 28, 1850. God Bless. RM. Brother RM, This quote is the second most used to uphold the application of the 1335 at the end of the world in a day for a day fashion. Those that do so, insist that the quote is stating that they told Brother Hewitt that he was in error for teaching that the 1335 had ended in 1843. The true reading of the quote is that they told him of many of his errors, one of which was re-applying the 1335 at the end of the world, for the 1335 had already ended in 1843. The interaction with Brother Hewitt took place at Otis Nichol’s home on the very weekend when James and Ellen White were putting their final approval upon the Nichol’s 1850 chart, just prior to its first printing. The pioneer understanding of the 1335 is upheld on the chart, so there would be no way that they would be marking the end of the 1335 in 1843 on the chart, and on the same weekend telling Brother Hewitt that he was in error for doing so. Jeff. Dear Jeff, That is the way I read the quote. I am speechless again. The English is plain, it is telling him that he had made a mistake and in particular the 1335. Thanks for the additional explanation. God Bless. RM.

AS REPLIES Hi Jeff,

Sorry to press you Jeff but a sincere question. How do Sister White’s words, “some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended”, translate to your interpretation, “one of [his errors] was re-applying the 1335 at the end of the world?” I can only understand EGW to be saying that it is an error to say the 1335 days have ended. AS.

RESPONSE

Brother AS, You can read it either way, but to suggest that she is saying he was teaching that the 1335 ended in the past, and that it was error for him to do so, stands in contradiction with all her statements against applying the time prophecies at the end of the world. More specifically she had just placed her seal of approval on the 1850 chart which identifies the 1335 as being fulfilled in 1843. You tell me why she and her husband would approve the printing of a chart that identified the 1335 as being fulfilled in 1843 and on the very same weekend rebuke someone for doing the same thing? It depends on what you wish to see. Jeff.

AS REPLIES Brother Jeff, Oh I see! I’m so sorry. I just re-read the quote and it struck me that while it could be saying, “One of his errors is that the 1335 is ended,” it also could be saying, “We told him that the 1335 was ended.” Grammatically it can be read either way, but the latter only just struck me now. Thanks Jeff. AS.