Meeting:

Members’ Meeting

Date:

Thursday 10 December 2015

Time:

11:00am – 1:15pm

Location:

Jury’s Inn East Midlands Hotel, Derby, DE74 2SH

Chairman:

Justin Gale

Paper:

Minutes

Attendees Justin Anthony Paul Tony Ian Wayne Richard Dave Paul Simon Steve

Gale * Colley * Cripps * Gill * Townsend * Murry * Rowson Avey Farn Elliott Pettitt *

Chairman Vice Chairman Treasurer BEST Services Central High Rise Churchill Churchill H & A Height Services Horizon J Redpath Buchanan Nimbus

Roy Paul

Westwick * Campbell

Omega PTSG - Electrical

Bill Kevin Gerald John Allen Lucy Howard Sarah

Butcher Goodfellow Kelly Parkes Robertson Smith Wright Garry

CITB CITB CITB CITB CITB CITB CITB Secretariat

Apologies James Michael Andy Katie Kevin Lee Graham Neil Chris Steve James Jim Gareth Andy Andrea

Foxen Greaves Bailey Joyce Ireland Hirst Rogers Smith Galley Shipman Burns Lacey Smyth Ritchie Murtagh

A C Wallbridge & Co Access Maintenance Bailey International Crown Services Direct Strike Earth Tech G & S Steeplejacks Guardian Harcon Services Heightwise Access Horizon J Lacey K2 Specialist Services LPS Mistras Group

Andrew Les Claire David Terry Matthew Richard Ian Andrew Peter

King Neil Gardner Hughes Wilcock Rafferty Sayer Barker Tarplee Ford

Northern Steeplejacks Northern Steeplejacks Osborne Delta Proteq (Northern) PTSG Rafferty International Rodells Southern Lightning St Ives Steeplejacks Syntex

Jason Paul Dave

Harfield Gaze Gaughran

ATLAS President CITB OSATS

* Council Member

1.

Welcome and Apologies The Chairman welcomed everyone to the meeting. It was noted that the apologies that had been received would be recorded in the minutes.

2.

Minutes of the Last Meeting held on 9 September and Matters Arising The minutes of the last meeting held on 9 September had been circulated and, further to a proposal by Roy Westwick (Omega) which was seconded by Paul Cripps (Treasurer), the minutes were approved and signed by the Chairman.

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a)

Guidance Note: CSCS Cards A Guidance Note for CSCS cards, flow chart and FAQs had been developed and circulated with the agenda. There being no queries regarding the document, members agreed that it should be added to the Training Group website and details distributed to members via the next email update.

Secretary’s The Guidance Note: CSCS Cards is available on the Training Group website. Note 3. The Future of Training within the LC/SJ Sector At the meeting in June, members had supported two proposals:  

to work with interested parties to register their facilities for EWPA to formalise a proposal for recruiting a dedicated Training Manager to provide additional provision for the sector.

ATLAS had discussed the first of these proposals at its meeting in October and agreed to:   

ask the National Specialist Accredited Centre (NSAC) to deliver a presentation on the differences between qualifying an operative via OSAT and EWPA liaise with CSkills to establish which centres were already registered to deliver NVQs and may be suitable for the delivery of LC/ SJ NVQs register additional assessors to deliver EWPA from NCC – East.

Howard Wright (CITB) confirmed that one LC EWPA had been run in November with 3 out of the 4 places filled. It was noted that industry had been very busy over the past few months and representatives from CITB agreed to set EWPA dates further in advance to allow employers to plan more effectively. ATLAS had applied to CITB for funding to address some of the sector’s concerns regarding training and this would include the upskilling of operatives which had achieved their CSCS cards via ‘Grandfather Rights’ and the development of an NVQ Level 3 SUP for Lightning Conductor Engineers. Howard Wright (CITB), Paul Farn (Horizon) and Steve Pettitt (Nimbus) volunteered to be part of a working group which would be agreed at the Training Group meeting in February, subject to funding approval. Action

CITB to set EWPA dates for 2016 and forward details to the Secretariat for distribution.

4.

Training Delivery

a)

EWPA/OSAT Kevin Goodfellow (CITB) delivered a presentation regarding the differences between achieving a qualification via EWPA and OSAT. 





The candidate would be profiled by the assessor either face to face or over the phone, to establish the most suitable route to achieve their NVQ. Profiling would include a professional discussion, review of the candidate’s work history and experience, an outline of the units and standards of the qualification and any training needs which the candidate had. EWPA required a minimum of three years’ experience and was suitable for candidates which did not have any additional training needs. The advantages of this route were strong candidate engagement, clearer opportunities for assessment and the fact it could be completed very quickly provided all supporting evidence had been collected prior to the assessment start date. Disadvantages included the cost to the employer, pressure on the candidate, difficulty in simulating a real task in college conditions, and difficulty for the assessor to prove the operative’s competency over time. OSAT required a minimum of two years’ experience and was suitable for operatives which had additional training needs. The advantages of this route were the low cost to the employer, that the operative could continue his usual work and may feel more comfortable in his usual surroundings, and that competency could be demonstrated over a sustained period. Disadvantages included that it could take longer and that assessment 2

opportunities could be limited and need rearranging due to weather or site changes. Members noted the challenges which they had faced when trying to move an operative from a CSCS Probationary card to a Trainee card. Kevin confirmed that, although two years’ experience was required to assess the operative, they could be registered for the NVQ and undertake additional training before being formally assessed. He also noted that if a candidate did not achieve the NVQ within a two-year period, they could re-register for it. Kevin confirmed that NSAC would be comfortable with the assessor profiling the candidate over the phone rather than face to face. Howard Wright (CITB) noted that a face to face visit allowed the assessor to collect all paperwork which was required in advance of the assessment being carried out, which shortened the time taken to achieve the qualification. Further to a question from Wayne Murry (Churchill), John Parkes (CITB) confirmed that assessors must be occupationally competent with hands on experience of the sector which they were assessing in. b)

Specialist Upskilling Programme ATLAS had run an NVQ L3 SUP Inspection and Testing in April and all operatives had achieved their qualifications. A second SUP had taken place in October and all nine operatives were expected to achieve their qualifications by mid-2016.

Secretary’s The next L3 SUP Inspection and Testing will take place from 27 June – 1 July and further Note information is available on the ATLAS website. c)

Apprenticeship Syllabus There had been a meeting between SLPTG and NCC – East in November to discuss the implementation of the rope access course which members had agreed should be delivered as part of the apprenticeship. Steeplejacks would undertake 7 days’ training in their first year and, following this training, would be able to undertake rope access work under the supervision of a suitably qualified operative. The apprentices would be required to complete a log book of the climbs which they had undertaken and in year 2 would undertake five further days’ training. Subject to passing an assessment, the apprentices would be classed as competent rope access operators. It was expected that most steeplejacks would be competent operators by the end of the 2 years, although some would leave the apprenticeship still requiring supervision on site. The rope access course would be linked to the NVQ and if an operative failed, they would need to successfully re-sit. Members were made aware that failure could impact on the CITB grant. Lightning Conductor apprentices would undertake 7 days’ training in the first year after which they would be able to undertake rope access work under the supervision of a suitably qualified operative. Apprentices could then choose to complete a log book so that they could undertake 5 further days’ training to become competent rope access operators in the second year. Operatives which weren’t able to complete the logbook would undertake 5 days’ refresher training. As not all LP companies utilised rope access, apprentices which did not pass the rope access training would still be able to pass the NVQ. Further to a query posed by Dave Avey (H&A Height Services), it was noted that the rope access course would be linked to the ISO and not to IRATA. Howard Wright (CITB) suggested that the Training Group liaise with CSCS to ensure that ‘Rope Access’ could be endorsed on cards for operatives which had passed the relevant module. Members confirmed the proposals and CITB would produce some guidance on the number of hours which apprentices would need to record in their log books, an outline of the training which would be provided each year, details of what qualifications and experience a suitably qualified supervisor would need and how many times an apprentice would be able to re-sit the module, if he failed.

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Action

CITB to produce guidance relating to the rope access modules for discussion at the next Training Group meeting on 9 February 2016.

d)

Apprenticeships Lucy Smith (CITB) confirmed that the March and April 2016 LC apprenticeships were fully booked with 6 of the 10 places booked for the May course. The February SJ apprenticeship was fully booked and 2 of the 8 places had been booked for the April course. A number of members indicated to Lucy that they may require the remaining places and they were reminded that the apprentices needed to apply via the BConstructive website. Allen Robertson (CITB) noted that there had been a number of apprentice drop outs over the past few years and he requested that employers ensured their recruitment processes were robust. Lucy advised members that there was some confusion at CSCS regarding registering apprentices for their red Apprenticeship card. Technically the apprentices did not register until the first day of their apprenticeship; however, some CSCS advisors were accepting email confirmation from Lucy that the place had been confirmed and others were not. It was requested that the Secretariat clarify the position with CSCS. There were 14 LC and 12 SJ apprentices in their first year and 10 LC and 7 SJ apprentices due to complete in early 2016. The Chairman advised members that Colin Sanders had been appointed as a new instructor at NCC – East and would begin teaching the LC apprenticeship in March 2016. Roy Westwick (Omega) had undertaken an audit of the NCC – East facilities and identified a number of concerns including expired calibration certificates, no evidence of harness inspections and no risk assessments. Howard Wright (CITB) advised members that the college had sent off for calibration certificates, the harness inspections had since been found on the computer system and apprentices agreed to follow instructors’ instructions onsite and daily risk assessments were therefore not required across any of CITB’s apprenticeships. Members agreed operatives were expected to read risk assessments each day on site, this should be reflected in the apprenticeship. It was agreed that NCC – East would forward corrective actions to the Secretariat and that a proposal would be developed for members and NCC – East to consider.

Action

  

5.

CITB to forward details of corrective actions to the Secretariat Secretariat to develop a proposal based on the results of the audit, for consideration by members and NCC – East Secretariat to liaise with CSCS regarding Apprenticeship cards.

SLPTG Training Programme The Training Group had spent or ring-fenced £22,510 of the £25,000 CITB additional grant in 2015. £6,300 had been spent delivering training courses and £16,210 had been paid in grants to members for delivering their own training. It was proposed that the Training Group delivered more of its own training in 2016 using £17,000 to provide regional sector specific training courses and e-learning. This would include Working at Height for Lightning Conductor Engineers, Anchors for Steeplejacks and Safe Earth Testing Refresher. Members also confirmed that they would like Overturning Moments courses delivered and Paul Farn (Horizon) agreed to share the syllabus which had been developed with instructor Bob Snailman so that this could be agreed by the Training Group. The remaining £8,000 grant would be ring-fenced for members to claim for the cost of undertaking their own administrative, supervisory and management training.

Secretary’s Details of how to claim the additional management grant is available on the Training Group Note website. A Working at Height for Lightning Conductor Engineers course will take place on 19 4

January in Derby and details are available via the Training Group website. 6.

Any Other Business

a)

Apprentice Reports Roy Westwick (Omega) raised a concern that employers had not been receiving feedback on apprentices’ progress at NCC – East. Howard Wright (CITB) noted that there had been a delay in his reports being distributed and none of the employers had received a copy of the reports sent by Lucy Smith (CITB) which would be investigated.

b)

ATLAS Ladder Guide At the last meeting, Bill Butcher (CITB) had raised a number of concerns regarding the ATLAS Ladder Guide which Wayne Murry (Churchill) had responded to as Chair of the ATLAS Safety & Access Committee. It was noted that Bill’s queries were valid in a number of respects; however ATLAS would be unable to update the guidance as it had been endorsed by HSE and Bill and Wayne would agree a formal response in case future queries were received. It was noted that NCC – East had not been involved in the development of the guide and ATLAS would liaise with them when developing future standards.

Action

Wayne Murry (Churchill) and Bill Butcher (CITB) to agree a response to the Ladder Guide.

c)

Rope Access Training Course At the meeting between the Training Group and NCC – East in November, there had been a discussion regarding the need for a rope access training course to be developed as an alternative to IRATA. Allen Robertson (CITB) had identified that there wasn’t a training course to the ISO at a lower level than IRATA and that there could be a skills gap. Members discussed the proposal and noted that it would be a CITB course which would be open to all construction operatives and not just the LC and SJ sector. It was agreed that there was a need for the course and Allen would develop a formal proposal for discussion with the Training Group at a future meeting.

Action

Allen to develop a formal proposal for a rope access course to be discussed at a future meeting.

d)

Apprenticeship Levy Further to a query from Paul Cripps (Treasurer), it was confirmed that ATLAS had responded to the Government consultation regarding the Apprenticeship Levy and Sarah Garry (Secretariat) and Jason Harfield (ATLAS President) had met with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) to discuss the impact which the levy would have on the sector. The Levy had been announced in the Chancellor’s Autumn Spending Review and it was expected to be implemented in April 2017. The Levy would be at 0.5% of an employer’s wage bill and collected monthly through the PAYE system. Each employer would receive an allowance of £15,000 to offset against their Levy payment which meant that the Levy would only be paid by businesses whose annual wage bills were in excess of £3 million. Smaller employers which would not pay the Levy would continue to be able to access Government support for apprenticeships. In preparation for ATLAS’ meeting with BIS, the Secretariat had requested some figures from CITB which demonstrated that CITB was heavily subsidising the sector’s apprenticeships. Although CITB was discussing a number of hybrid models with BIS, CITB expected to lose a minimum of 20% of its income through the new system which may impact on the apprenticeships it was able to deliver. Discussions were still underway about how the Levy would affect CITB and its delivery of apprenticeships and further information would be provided once available.

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d)

Pride of Construction Awards The Chairman advised members that the Training Group had won Outstanding Strategic Partner at the CITB Pride of Construction Awards in London on 25 November, against stiff competition from the National Access and Scaffolding Confederation (NASC) and Liverpool In Work.

e)

Apprentice Awards 2016 The Apprentice Awards would take place on Thursday 7 July at the NCC – East Awards Ceremony and exact details would be provided at the next Training Group meeting.

f)

Meetings in 2016 The next meeting would take place on Tuesday 9 February. It would be the first on which ATLAS and Training Group meetings took place on the same day and Training Group members which were non-members of ATLAS would be invited to attend the ATLAS members’ meeting. It was requested that members read the papers in advance of the meetings to ensure that they ran to time.

Future Meetings Tuesday 9 February 2016 – ATLAS & SLPTG Members’ and Council Meetings – Colwick Hall Hotel, Racecourse Road, Nottingham, NG2 4BH Tuesday 10 May 2016 – ATLAS & SLPTG AGMs, Members’ and Council Meetings – Doubletree by Hilton, Nuthall Road, Nottingham, NG8 6AZ Thursday 15 September 2016 – ATLAS & SLPTG Members’ and Council Meetings – The Oxfordshire, Rycote Lane, Oxford, OX9 2PU Wednesday 14 December 2016 – ATLAS & SLPTG Members’ and Council Meetings – venue tbc

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