Construction Technique

Construction Technique Natatorium Problem (Mar. 12/13) Q: We have been contacted regarding a failing Natatorium Envelope in a residential/community re...
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Construction Technique Natatorium Problem (Mar. 12/13) Q: We have been contacted regarding a failing Natatorium Envelope in a residential/community recreation center. During the initial construction of the room a heat pump/dehumidifier was installed. Architecturally, limited measures were taken to protect the framing, insulation or finishes in the Natatorium. During a recent inspection of the attic space above the Natatorium standing water, saturated insulation, rotting roof members and mold were found above the room. Douglas Aquatics, Inc. has been asked if there are any industry standard products that can be utilized in the construction of the envelope that will protect the surrounding framework, insulation and the structure in general. Possibly a membrane system that can be installed prior to wall paneling and ceiling covering? It has been recommended that we use a spray-in insulation media with a plastic vapor barrier between the veneer and the framing however we are looking for any and all options to give a holistic recommendation to our client. If you would please share this any experience, expertise or suggestions on resources, it would be much appreciated. - Douglas Salvia, Douglas Aquatics (Mar. 12/13) A: It may be a good idea to start with the National Building Enclosures Council. I imagine once they hear the problems with the Natatorium, they would be the most qualified to make the best recommendations for your specific issues. Here is a link to their website: https://www.nibs.org/?page=bec - Andrea Futeral, Aqua Blue Pools

Splash Pads (Mar. 8/13) Q: Hi All. Happy Spring! We are wondering what feedback the Guild has had from customers concerning Splash Pads in commercial projects. Are these viable alternatives to wade pools? Do you recommend one over the other, and if so, why? Also, which is better 25 meters or 25 yards for a small competition pool? We have both in our area. - Ruth Aveta (Mar. 8/13) A1: With our Commercial Pool Operations clients we've found that splash pads are a compliment to wading pools but not an alternative. The pool length is dictated by the swim league that regulates the swim meets. Both a 75 meter and a 75 foot comply with the NCAA but a 75 foot "short course" pool may not be permitted. Hope I've helped a bit. - Doug Salvia, Douglas Aquatics A2: Please call me if would like some ideas. - Rick Whiteaker, Pool Tech A3: Go Metric! - Steven Metz, Beauty Pools, Inc. A4: I can't speak to splash pads being a substitute for wading pools. As far as competition pools, check with the local high schools to see how records are kept. There was a time when high school records were kept in yards not meters so a 25 yard pool was the norm for practice or for swim meets. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A5: We have recently installed a splash pad on a new municipal pool project. The city loves it. It also does away with any of the ADA concerns. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools

Sound Absorption (Jan. 29/13) Q: One of the building architects that we are working with on an upcoming project has asked us for suggestions and making the pool room less noisy. What, if anything, are others using to address this if it has come up before? (Materials that absorb sound and are not affected by the moisture.) Debbie Hunt, Beauty Pools (Jan. 29/13) A1: Hi gang, Here is a contact for a sound acoustics design expert, Roger Andrews of BRC Acoustics & Audiovisual Design. One of their specialties is noise control. Chat with him about what you need specifically and he'll put you in touch with the right designer for projects such as what you're needing help with. Locations in Seattle, Portland, and Charleston... but they do national work. Roger's phone: 843-873-9442. - Andrea Futeral, Aqua Blue Pools

A2: Debbie the Pentair variable speed pump is a great way to quite things down. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools A3: An inexpensive way for us to reduce noise, is to place 1” Dorlon cover pieces or 1” Neoprene under the pumps as an isolation pad. You can buy proper commercial pads but they are expensive and so we use the Dorlon in none commercial applications to keep costs down as it is very effective. I the noise is really bad then the expensive route is isolation joints. Mason Flex. But those are general for large commercial or very high-end residential applications. - Carla R. Sovernigo, Alka Pool Construction

Flexible deck drains (Jan. 29/13) Q: Is anyone aware of deck drains that curve - I thought i saw this product before! - Debbie Hunt, Beauty Pools (Jan. 29/13) A1: Try Lawson Aquatics now owned by Neptune-Benson. They have grating and trench type deck drains that may work for you. - Taylor Stanley, Douglas Aquatics A2: Lawson Aquatics, 800-897-6160, has drains like that. - Louise Donahue, Barrington Pools A3: Try googling swimplex, not sure if you have them over there. - Grant Osborne, Blue Stone Pools A4: Try Quaker Plastics. [email protected] I've used it before. Works as good as any. - Gary Erickson A5: Yes, check out the website of EMAUX, China, they have a grating for curved channels. - Malay J. Shah, Belhasa Projects L.L.C.

Gunite Pools Built on Rock (Jul. 16/12) Q: A few years ago, we built a Gunite pool on a rock table. We are having problems after heavy rains with the hydrostat valve staying open and the pool draining down below the skimmer level. In case the valve is defective, we are going to replace it; however, we really think the valve is working as it should to equalize the pressure and that the problem is the rock in the ground. We are considering removing the valve and plugging the hole, but we are concerned that the pool might float up out of the ground. We would appreciate input from any members that build Gunite pools on rocky land, especially if you have encountered similar problems with the hydrostat valve. We are especially interested in knowing whether you have ever had a Gunite pool float out of the ground. - The Clearwater Company (Jul. 16/12) A1: Hi Lisa its Mike from fun state pools in Florida. Give me a call and I will see if I can help.352-3327665 - Mike, Fun State Pools A2: In Virginia we have some very dense clays and it is not unusual for us to build on sites that do not perk. Our procedure where necessary is to plug the hydrostatic port. Once we do so we follow with two other actions: (1) we notify the Owner that we have plugged their hydrostatic port and advise then not to drain the pool until the plug is removed, (2) we place a record of the date that the hydrostatic port was plugged in a folder in our computer that contains the names and dates of all pools with plugged hydrostatic ports. Prior to our Construction or Service Departments draining any pool they check the Plugged Hydrostatic List. Devise a recordation system that will provide you and perhaps others of identification that the pool has a plugged hydrostatic valve. You may even consider labeling the pool equipment. - F. Douglas Salvia, Douglas Aquatics, Inc. A3: First, are you sure it’s the hydrostatic valve. If so, sounds like you need to replace the spring. A weak spring would explain your situation. Be careful not to replace with too strong a spring or you could negate the function. Also check for proper movement, rocky subgrade likely has no bearing on your situation. Do you have ground elevations in the vicinity of the pool higher than the pool? Even a couple of feet? If so, that could explain the valve opening in a full pool scenario. Otherwise if it actually is opening, a full pool will not float unless local groundwater pressures are influenced by

locally higher elevations, then the rock could be contributing or acting to create an artesian type situation at the pool, does the water level increase more than the amount of rain would raise it.. You could do a bucket test the next time a rain event is forecasted, only this would be a reverse of the normal. - Mark Dorsey, Medallion Pool A4: Regarding your situation, we have been building pools in the North Texas region and never use hydrostatic valves in the bottom of our pools. Right or wrong it's not a standard practice to build pools with a valve. We do install a threaded 1 1/2" plug in the main drain that is removed when draining the pool. The one rule that we have always obeyed is that as long as the water in the pool exceeds the amount of water under the pool you will be fine. With that being said make sure you have a diver install the plug "don't drain the pool" When the diver is in the pool have them test the water pressure with dye to see if water is coming in or going out most likely the hydrostatic hole will pull dye which proves you have more pressure in the pool rather than outside the pool. I once had a pool that we built that had so much ground water that we left the hydrostatic plug open and literally used the ground water and two hoses to fill the pool after plastering. The 9' deep 30,000 gallon pool was filled in 6 hours... Once filled we then sent in a diver to cap off the hydro and balance the water. One way or the other I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just giving you my input. - Brian Claffey, Claffey Pools A5: We use hydrostats all the time and many of our pools are built in very rocky soil. We use a 1” clean rock bed in the bottom of all our pools, whether on a rock table or soil. There are occasional issues with the hydrostats opening and some debris (sand, rock, other) material holding the valve open and causing it to leak, this happens to us whether it is Gunite, vinyl or other. Our policy is to always have a hydrostat unless there is another way to remove water (sump) or there is enough land fall for drainage. It is also our policy to replace hydrostats anytime the pool is drained for any reason. In recent history we have replaced two (2) Gunite shells that floated out of the ground. The most recent was under renovation by another company and “popped” out of the ground four (4) feet. Hydrostats are a necessity for our construction area. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools A6: Don't know much about rock, but I can promise you that a Gunite pool will float like a boat. Don't ask me how I know! From your description, this pool sounds like a good candidate. You might try a thin bead of underwater epoxy putty around the flange of the valve. Enough to help waterproof the valve but not enough to completely seal it off and allow the pool to float. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A7: We build pools in rocky conditions all the time and we do not use hydrostatic valves. I have seen those valves leak so we put plugs in the main drain pots and instruct our client to NEVER drain their pools. - Matt Perezchica, Johnson Pool & Spa A8: I live in the mountains of Montana and build 80% of my projects on rocky ground. I am quite aware of your problem. I merely delete the "stinger" that screws into the bottom of the main drain and screw in a 1 1/2" threaded faceplate. (In the olden days we used these to cover the skimmer relief ports underneath the skimmer openings. This looks like a little catchers mask (baseball), is flush w/ the bottom, and keeps the big chunks out in case there is any hydrostatic pressure from beneath the pool. It has been my experience that rocky ground drains much easier than other more dense soils. I think your problem may be in the valve. I have heard of pools "popping out" but in the mountains you generally don't built at the lowest point in the valley! No "Popping Out" in Montana! Gary Erickson, Erickson's Pools A9: I would not recommend taking out the hydro valve. The rock can act as a basin around the pool and hold the groundwater around the pool making it more probable to float a pool. I have seen more than one Gunite pool float. We have been called in to repair quite a few of them. Ranging from small residential pools to large municipal pools. - Chris Neuman, Neuman Pools

Building a continuous swim pool (Jun. 14/12) Q: We have been contracted to build a small narrow pool with a swim jet. I have not built one of these pools before and need some advice. 1. What jet do you advise me to use? 2. What horsepower should the pump be? 3. What brand of equipment is best for this system? 4. Should the suction be on the back wall or beside the jets to create a circulation effect? I am sure some of you have experienced this pool and I want to learn from your mistakes, hindsight and foresight to build the best pool for my customer. - Joe T. Jones, Texas Blue Lake Pools Inc. (Jun. 14/12)

A1: First you would need to know how aggressively the homeowner wants to swim. Once you know that you can then determine what type unit. We have installed both the Badu Jet (different types) and the Fastlane system by Endless Pools. The Badu jet is more for the recreational swimmer and comes with the pump (either one or two 4HP pumps). The Fastlane is hydraulically powered. This unit can be used by an Olympic swimmer. - Clint Fore, Aqua Blue Pools A2: I use the Badu swim-jets. It has the jets and pump (4 hp and stronger) in a kit. - Mark Fournier, Piscines Bonaventure A3: Badu Jet - Super sport works great. It is a "package" they ship you the motor, and swim jet. You have to plumb and valve it. If the pump remains within 30 ft. the plumbing is 4". Any farther distance and they will want to use 6". It is pretty much a "self-contained unit". Takes some patience to make sure it is mounted properly for pouring concrete. We have done a couple of them feel free to contact if you have any more questions. - Henry Long A4: We’ve always used the Badu Jet by Speck, although there’s other stuff out there. The suction is built into the jet. The pump, furnished by Speck, and pipe size is based on the distance to the equipment pad. Word of caution, the pump is nearly impossible to prime if it’s more than a foot or so above water level. - Mark Reed, Memphis Pool A5: We have done a few swim jet pools and always have good luck with HydroAir products. Here is their detailed installation diagram. - Chip Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A6: Check out the fast lane unit for concrete pools by endless pools. They by far are the best and actually creates a current with a large fan instead of jets. A little more cost but well worth it. Email me or call with any other questions. - Michael Gress, Gress' Incorporated A7: We have done several different current systems. Speck Pumps BaduJet systems are pretty straight forward and work OK. The Super Sport is a nice package, but we have gone to installing the Badu Stream with two nozzles with the 4 hp pump as it is an easier install, easier to work on in future and less expensive. The closer the equipment the better. If you are going over 50' or so, up size to 6" piping in lieu of 4". These are good for modest swimmers. Strong swimmers will probably want a stronger current. Suction location is better at opposite end of jets, in a small pool, but not critical. Current Systems, River Flow units are capable of moving a lot more water that the BaduJet systems. There are 7 1/2 and 10 hp versions I believe and require 10" piping. They provide different piping schematics with regards to suction outlets, etc. Much nicer current, better controls, more expensive... Endless Pools, makes a unit called the Fast Lane that can be installed in concrete pools. It is a stainless steel unit that mounts to the wall of the pool. Generates a current somewhere between the BaduJet and the River Flow. The current generation takes place in the unit in the pool and is powered by a remotely located hydraulic pump. Generates a current somewhere between the BaduJet and the River Flow. Pricing is in between as well. We had to go through the local rep for Endless Pool for the supply and partial installation - worked out OK for us. With any of them, it is important that the customer has realistic expectations. Good swimmers are able to outpace most currents if they try. Proper use is to get in cadence with the wader and swim in place! We have had to have manufacturers brainwash a few people. Better to do this before you build it! Hope this is of some help. - John Grimes, Monarch Pools A8: We have done several different types of these pools. The easiest but least attractive is the Fastlane by Endless Pools. The more difficult one we have used is RiverFlow. The difference between the two is the Fastlane is a unit that mounts into the pool with hydraulic lines extending to a pump back at the equipment and the Riverflow utilizes large plumbing back to the equipment where a motor and impellor are mounted. The run must be relatively short and direct because this system relies on high volume and low head loss. - Jeff, Mission Pools A9: Joe we’ve installed two Fastlane Endless Pool jet systems. The customers love it, it can put out enough water that their kids were wakeboarding on it! It’s different than others but you can adjust the flow for different skill levels. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools, Inc. A10: We have used several Badu jet systems and been very happy with them. They have a variety of systems to fit the swimming needs of your client. They come complete with pump(s). You will need 4” piping and there is some restriction on distance between jets & pump. We have also used Swim Gym. It is more expensive and more difficult to install but uses no venture air and moves a lot of water. Steve Chandler, Custom Pools & Patio

A11: Joe, we use Speck Pumps Badu Stream 2 , package A. 2 jets, 1-4hp pump, 400gpm. Minimum 4" plumbing. Part number-#2308000042. We pay about $2200 and sell it for $4500 plus plumbing, labor, and electric hook-up. Pipe sizing is critical for long runs. I have one in my pool, and have installed several for customers. I recommend this unit. I have never had a problem. I also use Speck pumps on water features and have never worked on one! They have plumbing diagrams and are simple to install. My experience with this company is good. Call me if you have questions. - Cham Carpenter

Gunite spa bubbler rings (Mar. 29/12) Q: We are building a large 10' x15' inground all tile commercial spa. They want a bubbler ring in the floor. Looking for information / ideas from anyone who has done this before. - Debbie Hunt, Beauty Pools (Mar. 29/12) A1: We have used a bubbler bar from Master Supply (www.master-supply.com). - Craig Galloway, Galloway Pools A2: Attached are a couple links for products that we have used in the past. One is an air bar by Master Supply and the other are air injector fittings by Waterway. http://www.mastersupply.com/airbar.html / http://www.waterwayplastics.com/products/pool-products/whitegoods/miscellaneous-accessories/ - Randy Bauer, Symphony Pools A3: We build a plumbing ring in the floor with 3/4 in stub ups and put on water way injectors 6702330 - Scott Burton, Prestige Pools LV

Slot Overflow (Feb. 23/12) Q: I am about to embark on my first "SLOT OVER-FLOW" pool. Please pass any information available for do's and don'ts. Also any information about parts and material supplies will be helpful. This is a free form pool. - Gary Erickson, Erickson's Pools & Spas, Inc. (Feb. 23/12) A1: You are welcome to call my cell anytime. I would be glad to pass along my experience, plans, whatever you need that could help. - Mark Dorsey, Medallion Pool A2: We have done two freeform slot edge pools. Allow a lot of time. Call me. - Steve Chandler, Custom Pools and Patio

Lazy River Project (Sep. 30/11) Q: I have a customer that wants a rapids fall to tube down about 12 ' wide dropping about 4 ' into a lazy river. Has anyone built a project like this? Any help would be much appreciated! - Scott Burton, Prestige Pools Inc. (Sep. 30/11) A1: Scott, we have done a pool with waterfalls and a lazy river. I will try to answer questions you may have. We figured it out ourselves and may be able to save you some wear and tear. This pool is on the pool tour sat. If you are in okc it might be helpful to go see it. - Cham Carpenter, We Dig Pools A2: I would call Family Fun Pools on the lazy river and talk with Scott Cook - Keith Bishton, Greenville Pool

Ecosmart Pools (Sep. 30/11) Q: Has any one dealt with any ecosmart pools? - Scott Burton, Prestige Pools Inc. (Sep. 30/11)

A1: We have but I don't know if your question has to do with installation or experience/Maintenance. You can call me to discuss at 919-427-2699 - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A2: Not very happy with the product. The unit works the way they say it does but the amount of customer or service persons attention to the water balance is much greater. The copper level in the water needs to be checked on a regular basis, daily or every other day. As soon as the levels drop below the recommended values the pool goes cloudy, develops algae, and you get the call. The ph control is done with CO2 and works good but it is a pain to stay on top of tank deliveries. Of the four units installed I think we had to remove 2 of them because of unsatisfied customers. It isn’t a knock on the product, just the amount of maintenance required to make the system operate properly. - Jeff Dunn, Mission Pools A3: I sell a lot of the chlorine free systems, they are more advanced than ecosmart. - Mark Dorsey, Medallion Pool

Sheer Descents (Oct. 12/11) Q: We are building a pool that has 5-18" Custom Cascades (Sheer Descents). The customer has asked for them to be lit. Does anyone have any recommendations on what does or does not work? - David Galloway, Galloway Pools (Oct. 12/11) A1: We’ve used this product line. Our Florida rep is Dave Jeroski at 727 487-4335. Good luck http://nextstepproduct.com/SAVI/NovaFall.html - Jeff Knight, Curtis Pools A2: I am not sure I got your model of Cascade. This one is a Paramount model. We installed it just a little further out, in order to add a white led light strip underneath. We glued the mosaic on top of the lip as you can see. The strip comes from behind the wall at the right side of the Cascade, where the pump house is. I had a specialist in led lights to do it, but it cannot be difficult. The client wanted a plain cascade with light, and Paramount had only the Rain Cascade with light. (I do not remember its commercial name, but the water does fall like cascade but like rain). I do not have a photo of the cascade from underneath, where you could see the led strip. The mosaic is 2cm x 2cm. I´d love to send you a photo of it at night, but I do not have that either. I have not seen it myself. But the client is satisfied. Tell me if you need more information. - Charlotte Sanden, Sanden Trading

Stand Up Spa (Aug. 2/11) Q: Has anyone built a custom spa where user can step down in one area and experience neckdeep water in a standing position....with jets? - Gary Erickson, Erickson's Pools (Aug. 2/11) A1: Yes. We did a U shaped spa where you stepped down into a middle well and the rest of the spa and benches wrapped around it. We had a separate pump that was used to power 8 jets in a ladder layout with two at the calves, two at the thighs, two at the lower back, and two at the upper back. This layout was customized to the owner's height. - Keith Lindbergh, Lombardo Pools

A2: Yes, I had one for a professional football player, I would be glad to share any information I can. Keith Lombardo, Lombardo Pools A3: several times - Scott, Prestige pools Las Vegas A4: Gary we had one installation like that it was simple and the owner loved it. However in this case both owners were about the same height which made the design easier. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools, Inc.

Swim-up bar (Sep. 28/11) Q: Please let us know if any of you are authorized ChlorKing dealers. Also, we have an opportunity to build a pool with a swim-up bar and we would appreciate any input (ideas, lessons learned, pictures, etc.) from any of you. - Mike Elsey, The Clearwater Company (Sep. 28/11) A1: I do have to say that I have not done very many and would not be considered anywhere near the expert at our company but I have a CAD plan that I can provide to you and some pictures that the customer was absolutely thrilled with. I hope this helps to earn you and your company a very nice project! - Skip Ast III, Shasta Pools A2: If it residential make sure either to install a curb around all the bottom of the bar stools so the Polaris doesn't get hung up between them or install in floor cleaning. We always use sona tubes for the bar stools with steel that ties back to the pool floor and shoot the sona tubes when we shoot the pool. Pretty easy. - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A3: Attached is a drawing from a recent job.. I have used these dimensions a few times, these dimensions work well for all ages and sizes.. Including young children. The seat height can be lowered to 16” for adults only seating. - Mark Dorsey, Medallion Pool

Vanishing edge spa air loop (Jul. 20/11) Q: When installing a vanishing edge spa how do you run the jet airline when a loop is impossible? The area around the spa is flat for at least 30 feet. Thanks for your help in advance. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools (Jul. 20/11) A1: We run the air line as high as we can at the top of the bond beam. Then I would cut a t and extend it over to the other side and elbow it above the spa by at least 2 feet. I would try to see how it works then add if necessary a blower. - Byron Graham, Paradise Pools Canada A2: What we have done is run it in the wall of the shell to the top of the bond beam and then back down. We did put a blower on also but they rarely use it. - Dave, Beattie Pools A3: Air blower - Brian Short, Custom Pools A4: Mike: you are correct- It is impossible. What I do is try to find a place that is in the near vicinity of the spa and do a loop outside of the spa. I just do the loop at the closest vicinity and then continue the air line back to the equipment area so the blower can be installed. I strongly recommend a blower on every install due to the water is going to get into the air line up until it hits the loop. We just finished one where there was a column right next to the spa, so I ran the loop up inside the column. On another one I had a bbq within 10 ft. of the spa so we ran the loop up inside the bbq. I have seen others install a swing check valve on the air line vertically right at the therapy's but I do not have the guts to bury a check valve in the shotcrete and hope and pray that it never fails. Good luck- I know you will come up with something. - Jeff Ast, Shasta Industries A5: Is it 360 degree perimeter overflow or just one side overflow? (Infinity edge) We've done both and have installed hardford loop on the 360 perimeter overflow and have no problems. We've also installed 360 degree perimeter overflows with no hardford loop and it works but, it seems it takes longer for all the jets to work probably because there more water in the line and takes longer to be

sucked out. We did not need a blower either way. Make you use telson and your jet air line to the right length when installing the jets. Feel free to call me. - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A6: We notch the vanishing edge spillover deep enough to install a loop inside the Gunite wall somewhere around the spa. For instance, if I’m installing a 2” air line we make sure and cut the spill 2-1/2” below the bond beam. We then loop the pipe at the top of the beam inside the Gunite. Call me if I didn’t explain clearly. - Mark Reed, Memphis Pool A7: Remember how a jet works, it creates a vacuum which allows gravity to take over. As long as you have at least one jet lower than the air line pipe running back to the air loop, even though it may be 30’ away, the jet vacuum will allow gravity to purge the air line. - Jeff, Mission Pools A8: We have installed a motorized valve actuator (Jandy JVA, Compool, etc.) on the air line in a valve box hidden in the deck adjacent to the spa and wired in with the air blower at the controller. This doesn't eliminate water getting into the air line because the valve is slow closing, but does limit it to an amount that the air blower can overcome. We have also installed some non-traditional air blowers that are capable of purging a water filled air line. Not the best design, but it does work! - John Grimes, Monarch Pools A9: We install a loop at the top of the beam and use a Roton commercial grade air blower. - Doug Salvia, Douglas Aquatics A10: I have read the other replies, we have done the same by losing the loop in a wall etc., but as you state you do not have that option. We have also put a double loop under the shell, we also have used a stainless steel loop which looks like a handrail. Hope to see you in Oklahoma. - Ian Storr, Falcon Pools UK A11: We have not come across this before, but it sounds like the air has to be ran the 30’ to a blower above water. I received the message from Ray and will call him back this afternoon. Enjoy the rest of the summer. - Matt Perezchica, Johnson Pool & Spa A12: We just installed one and put a blower on it with an air cane in a closet about 30 feet away Brian Crank

Adding on to an existing Gunite shell (Jun. 05/11) Q: Does anyone have specific method of adding on to an existing Gunite shell? We have done it in the past but are looking for better ways to achieve a water tight connection. - Steve, Custom Pools and Patio (Jun. 05/11) A1: We have done it in various pools in the past, can you please give some more details, is this to extend an existing pool? - Malay Shah, Belhasa Projects A2: Just talked with a concrete specialist last week who we have been working with for well over a year. I had not heard this before but with shotcrete and Gunite, if the surface of the cured concrete or uncured concrete is rough you can shot against it and it will create a bond as strong as if it were all shot at one time. He even said if you shoot against a troweled and cured surface and wetted the old surface the new concrete paste would gravitate into the troweled surface and create a water tight bond. He did stress that the specs/quality of the material (new and old) and the process of shooting (just proper shotcrete/Gunite application-nothing special) was important to the success of the application. I can give you the name and phone number of Charles Hanskat. He used to work for the CTL Group (one of the top if not the top concrete testing outfit in the country) and now has his own consulting business Concrete Engineering Group. You can contact him at 847-480-5117. He IS a consultant and may charge for his services. He was the consulting engineer on problems we had. He started out as a workman in shooting concrete, became an engineer and had worked in the industry for thirty plus years. You also have Neil Anderson but this guy has more knowledge and experience and credentials than Neil…not to discredit Neil but he just has more specific experience in concrete and more specialized. As a matter of fact the CTL Group was referred to us by Neil and that is how we wound up meeting Charles. - Rae Wallace, Arrow Master Pools

A3: I would check with Ron Lacher. He is the engineer that I've used for over 15 years. He is extremely knowledgeable in the industry. Phone: 714-630-6100. - Mike Logan, Logan Pools A4: Steve I would consult with Neil Anderson. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools, Inc.

3m on top of pebble finish (Jun. 02/11) Q: We have a customer that would like us to install color quartz over the top of his pebble finish. Has anyone done this and what prep did you do? - Debbie Hunt, Beauty Pools (Jun. 02/11) A1: Debbie, yes we have. Standard prep, you will go thru a lot of grinder blades because of the pebble. Bond-cote and finish. - Russ Bourque, Florida Bonded Pools A2: We have not done this however I would think that the pebble finish would provide excellent mechanical attachment properties. I would think a strong power wash to remove loose stones followed by a bondcoat would be sufficient for application of the color quartz finish. - Doug Salvia, Douglas Aquatics

Pools on roof of building (Apr. 13/11) Q: We have customer that is interested in two (2) swimming pools (he wants fiberglass structure) on the roof of a new concept building. We would appreciate any thoughts/advice any members have as we look at this potential project. This owner appears very interested and we prefer to keep his business local with us and certainly to a Guild member. Thanks for your thoughts. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools (Apr. 13/11) A1: Rick, been there done a variety of them. Call me to discuss pros and cons. My cell is 440 552 3100. - Jeff, High-Tech Pools A2: Years ago I used Chester Pools. They produce aluminum pools for multi-story buildings. We moved their aluminum pool from LA to Visalia (300mi) from the 84 Olympics. - Larry Rambaud, Genesis Pools A3: We've done Gunite as well as Stainless on upper floors- roofs but not fiberglass. Glad to help if we may be of assistance. - Roy Reed, Memphis Pool A4: Rick I would recommend he go with stainless steel not fiberglass. It’s going to last twice as long or more. There are several suppliers but I’ve done two with Paragon Aquatech out of Chicago. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools A5: Rick call me when you get chance @919-427-2699 so we can discuss. - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A6: We have not done high rise pools that were fiberglass. The ones we have built have been shotcrete or stainless steel. The general contractors usually provide a structural box to perform to perform all of the work within. I would try to get 30% more than a normal commercial pool that you would complete. The stainless steel pools are usually made by bradford products back east. - Steve Ast, Shasta Industries A7: If I were you I would get connected with our PEP partner Natare Corporation and convince your customer to go with a stainless steel structure. Check them out at www.natare.com. - Ron Coker Sr., Artistic Pools A8: We have done this type of thing with a company out of Italy that makes a stainless steel pool. They are called Myrtha. Check out their web site at www.myrthapools.com/ if you are interested, I can give you a contact name and number. - Walter Schmoll, Hollandia Gardens A9: Make sure the "vault" you will be building the pool in has some sort of drainage, away from the areas below the pool structure. - Gordon MacGregor, Rizzo Pools

A10: We have done several pools that are multiple floors above ground and also on roofs. None were fiberglass, all were Gunite. If you have any specific questions about those, feel free to contact me. Chip Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A11: We have built several rooftop commercial pools (and one residential vanishing edge on the third floor). You can't waterproof the shell enough. Also make sure that the "vault” is waterproofed, floor and walls. The vault needs a floor drain. The floor drain needs to be piped away rather that dripping onto the Mercedes that will not doubt be parked under it. It is likely that there will be condensation on the exposed piping at certain times of the year. Make sure that your client is prepared for this. We run our piping overhead in brackets of Uni-strut hung from SS all-thread rod. The plumbing really requires forethought and careful layout. Gravity flow pipes such as gutters and main drains trump the others and get preferential treatment. There will no doubt be ups and downs in these pipes and you need to be prepared to install a valve, such as a hose bib, anywhere there is a high spot in the pipe. Building a pool above grade can be humbling. You will find out if your pools leak you will be amazed that a pool shell can sweat! - Randy Pickelmann, President Curtis Pools A12: Call Walter Schmoll, Hollandia Gardens in Canada, does a lot of this work but with Stainless Steel. - Tim W. Rainey

Water Evaporation (Apr. 5/11) Q: Is there any study that can be shown to a client about average water evaporation with vanishing edge? (If details needed, but I only need an average study: Our temperatures are similar to California. The pool is 14 feet by 39 feet, with a vanishing edge 39 feet, with 2x pumps 2HP. The water flows into a little more than 1 feet wide canal along the pool and from there into a tank in the filter room.) Good Luck to everyone for the spring and summer season! - Charlotte Sanden, Sanden Trading S.L. (Apr. 5/11) A1: Charlotte it really depends on the height of dam wall, material used on dam wall, how the pumps run each, etc. - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A2: Charlotte, sorry there is not a study available. Vanishing edges naturally have more evaporation than a standard pool with all that water flowing over the edge. Is the pool in a windy site? That also adds to the evaporation. Have you done a bucket test? If you haven’t I would fill the bucket full and place it in the water on the lowest step possible and that still allows the top of the bucket to be out of the water. Then measure the water loss in the pool and the bucket with the vanishing edge off. That should give you a good idea how the pool is performing. Good luck and I hope the rest of your year is more enjoyable. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools, Inc. A3: You should contact Neil O Anderson for that answer. His number is 209-367-3701. If anyone did that study it would have been him. - Ruth Aveta, Creative Master Pools

Bonding grid (Apr. 01/11) Q: We are being told to comply with the NEC bonding grid requirement within 3' under the pool deck. I'm curious if other members have the same requirement or have found an acceptable alternative. Any information will be helpful. - Mark Reed, Memphis Pool (Apr. 01/11) A1: We have to have with in 16in of the beam and no lower than 4pm on the dirt and I think it a joke. - Art Allen, A&G Concrete Pools Inc A2: We have been doing this for the last four years. The municipalities have allowed us to install one #8 copped wire around the entire pool perimeter connected to the pool shell at four equal points. Wire must be within 18" of the pool shell and buried 4" below the surface. I have an engineering detail if you need it. Hope this helps. - Travis Leonard, A&G Concrete Pools Inc. A3: Hi mark, we have been doing the bonding in Florida for about four years now.NO alternatives that we found. You are talking about using a single strand not a grid right? Feel free to give me a call 352332-7665 - Mark, Fun State Pools Inc.

A4: In St Louis we need to have a 3’ bounding grid around entire pool. If there is no deck we need to install 3’ copper bonding grid I have been purchasing this copper grid from you dad. - Dennis Sansone Pool Tron, Inc. A5: We have been doing it for the past three years. They all have allowed us to use 6x6x10 wire mesh and tie it together. The inspectors in Mi. all think it’s a waste but still have to make us comply. - Dave, Beattie Pools A6: We are placing a 3' rebar grid 12' x 12' sections around the bond beam on all pools in New Mexico and have found no other alternatives. I also believe that Texas will soon make us comply with this code. - Bob David, Advanced Pools A7: We had to do that for several years. We had several hearings and now by local option they go back to the 2002 code regarding equipotential bonding. - Steve Chandler, Custom Pools A8: We are required to install a #8 bond wire 18" back from the water’s edge all the way around the pool and tied back into the pool steel in 4 equal length locations around the pool. - Jeff Ast, Shasta Industries A9: Mark, we have been successful doing just a loop 3' around the pool perimeter with #8 ground wire, tied into are home run thru the pool with tales and back thru pipe trench to equip pad. Note we only do that when we are responsible for the deck (the loop 3' around pool perimeter part). Hope that makes sense? Call me if need a better understanding. - Jeff, High Tech Pools A10: They have been making us use that grid the past 4 years. I have not found an alternative. Thanks for the info. - Keith Bishton, Greenville Pool A11: Not only do you need to bond the deck for NEC you also need to bond the water. We have been dealing with this for over four years now. We buy a copper bonding grid from WW Adcocks distributorship. Some townships will allow you to use bare #8 solid copper wire under the deck as opposed to the grid but will come down to local inspector. - Scott Guerin, Arrow Master Pools A12: In Connecticut, code we follow is a # 8 encoded copper wire. Wire, runs around the pool approximately 3 feet out from the outside wall of the pool and must be buried at least 6 inches below the bottom of the deck... in the sub base is good enough... one reinforcing bar about 3 foot long, should protrude from each corner of the pool. The copper wire is attached to each one of these bars and then run back to the permanent ground, at the pump... if it's a liner pool with metal walls, you would attach the grounding wire to four places on a steel wall.. If it's a composite wall or fiberglass and there is no metal to attach it to at the pool wall, just run around as stated above to the permanent ground. The same wire can be used to connect other equipment too... such as ladders, handrails, lights, etc. for bonding and grounding. - Al Rizzo, Rizzo Pools A13: Mark we have been complying in several jurisdictions for over two years. Some areas in California are requiring the grid when there is dirt and no deck. Go figure! - Mike Geremia. Geremia Pools, Inc. A14: We have met the requirement with our local inspectors by looping the pool (within 2’ of the water’s edge) with (1) #8 solid ground wire and picking up the pool steel in 4 locations. We have to do this whether there is a deck or not. - Tom Giuffrida, Patio Pools A15: Been doing it for years. We use # 3 rebar 3 feet around pool. You have to run another wire of gage format and bond everything else to mat - Brian Crank A16: NJ had that code NEC 2005 requiring a copper grid installed under walking surfaces within 3’ of the water edge. IN the NEC 2008 that was rolled back to a single copper wire installed around the pool perimeter, bonded in 4 places, set between 18” to 24” away from the water’s edge. We are still using this revised code now. If you need to know more, or see the codes and interpretations, or where to get the grid, let me know. - Ruth Aveta, Creative Master Pools

Cover-Pools track channel system (Jan. 28/11) Q: When building a Gunite pool with a Cover-Pools track channel system ( track recessed under coping set on top of and flush with tile face) what dimension do you set the top of the weir wall down from the top of the beam on the cover box side? - Marc Wittmeyer, Douglas Aquatics, Inc. (Jan. 28/10) A1: We set it at least 1" above normal water level. - Blake C. Stephenson, Jabco Master Pools A2: Set the weir wall 3" below bond beam. When you tile it, it will finish out about 2 1/2 " below bond beam. Tilt the wall into the pool at about a 20 degree angle. - Gary Erickson A3: Gunite is 4 inches finish tile @3 - Wes Kerns, ANG Pools

Plastering an epoxy painted pool (Dec. 29/10) Q: Does anyone know of any bondcoating materials (approved use) that will adhere to epoxy paint so that the pool can be plastered? Or is the only option to do a hard sandblast to remove all the epoxy paint. The owner of a potential major rehab project is very reluctant to have the sandblasting done because of the mess to her and more importantly the neighbors. Suggestions? - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools (Dec. 29/10) A1: Rick The pool should be sandblasted and all paint should be removed. Then a bonding coat should be applied prior to final plaster coat. - Byron Graham, Paradise pools of Canada Limited A2: Dry ice blasting is an alternative. Much less clean up, however more costly - Ed, Hollandia Gardens

Spa Equalizer/Spill to Pool (Dec. 22/10) Q: In the course of our construction of pool and raised, detached spas, we continue to encounter the gurgling sound of water spilling into the spa overflow pipe. We have tried changing to a larger pipe and adding 45's or 90's to slow the flow, but still the gurgle continues. Do you have any suggestions as to how to reduce or eliminate this sound as the spa overflows into and down the pipe? - Terri Rann, Master Pools of Washington (Dec. 22/10) A1: We have recently experienced this same issue. We came up with installing the spa end of the overflow pipe underwater and creating a loop in the plumbing at the desired height in the spa wall. The pool end of the overflow is also under water and therefore there should not be any noise from either end. This will also keep debris from entering the overflow pipe from the spa and causing a blockage. We have not built a pool/spa with this method yet, but it seems to solve the issues! Let me know what you think. - Matt Perezchica A2: Is there a way for you to vent the pipe and terminate the vent where the gurgling sound won't bother anyone? - Chris Neuman, Neuman Pools Inc. A3: We normally use flexible pipe. That may help. - Jorge, Watermania A4: What we have done in the past was to put a series of drains (usually four) around the perimeter of the spa that all fed into the main overflow line to the pool. Hope this is of some help. - Kevin Ford Pool Buiders, Inc. A5: Here is a thrown together model of a baffle we constructed out of flat stock PVC material to deaden the noise of water flowing into Gutter Drop Outs in our overflow gutter pools. It interrupted the water flow enough to almost eliminate the sound. Try it …. It is simple to construct. - Walter Schmoll, Hollandia Gardens

A6: Have you tried installing a vent in the line? - Cory J Reeder, Genesis Pools A7: Terri, we install the overflow just under the tile line and connect it to a Hartford loop to eliminate the gurgling noise. It has worked for us. - Randy Mund, Johnson Pool and Spa

Marcite (Aug. 31/10) Q: I am seeking information regarding applying Marcite to a Shotcrete shell that has sat idle for three years. Back in 2008 we shot a pool shell for a client before their house was constructed. As time has passed and the house construction has come to the end, the pool construction has resumed and is quickly approaching the Marciting stage. Should we be concerned with applying Marcite to the shell that has been exposed for so long? Has anyone gone down this road before and if so what did you do? I look forward to any input. - Joe Bilow, St. Lawrence Pools (Aug. 31/10) A1: Shouldn't have a problem as long as the calcium and any debris is cleaned from the pool surface. (Good acid wash) - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A2: It will be fine. Just soak it down for a day prior. - Hans Huber, Huber Pools, Inc. A3: Joe we did have something similar but we had cracks in the shell, nothing major but we had the customer hire Neil Anderson to check the soundness of the structure and to repair the cracks with epoxy injection. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools A4: We have pools that sit for years here in Charleston. We just plastered one that has been sitting since 2008. We typically give it a good acid wash and standard prep for plaster and have had no issues. We also always check for any cracking or plumbing issues, and maybe even a pressure test. Clint Fore, Aqua Blue Pools A5: On long standing unfinished shells, we've power washed and done ok. However on something as long as you've experienced, I'd want to something a little more than power washing......probably sand blast......that'd get even the deepest film/surface penetration of slime, microbiological growth, contamination off. Perhaps even a light acid wash at the end. - Roy Reed, Memphis Pool A6: We have plaster many of shells years after they have been shot. Treat it as a replaster and you will be okay. Clean it well using acid then water and TSP. If you are not sure about the surface, bond coat first then marcite. - Joe T. Jones, Texas Blue Lake A7: Ardy said you just need to make sure the shell is clean by acid washing or pressure washing and that is all you need to do. We do a lot of plastering here in Minnesota and have done it for over 30 years so I trust his opinion. Also, during the MPG seminar in Virginia this year we talked to a vendor named Randy Duke who is very knowledgeable in all areas of plastering and he has even written a book which we bought. Possibly you may be able to get his number from Nancy Mathews and talk with him. The book is called POOL SURFACES PROBLEMS and SOLUTIONS. I looked but could not find the answer to this particular question. - Kathy Neutz Quality Pools, LLC

A8: One of the things we came across with Gunite shells that sat so long was to be sure and either power wash or sandblast off the calcium that has leached out of the Gunite. - Matt Perezchica, Johnson Pool & Spa A9: We’ve had projects extend over multi-year periods. We’ve simply acid washed the pool shell and neutralized the acid with Tri-Sodium Phosphate and have had no issues. However not knowing your weather conditions, debris or oils that may have contaminated the concrete surface, mix design, etc.; my recommendation is that you play it safe and apply a bond coat to the surface prior to plastering. Doug Salvia, Douglas Aquatics

Deck level gutter (Aug. 18/10) Q: We are designing a residential rectangle pool with a deck level gutter (actually a slot in the deck stone with gutter beneath) on two sides and infinity edge on two sides. Would anyone have a gutter design drawing, with a section that shows gutter size and pipe outfalls that they would be willing to share? - Mark Reed, Memphis Pool (Aug. 18/10) A1: We have a product that is approved for commercial applications called Fastlane Coping. If you go to the website, www.fastlanecoping-usa.com, you can see some typical details for this product. Hope all is going well. - Jeff Dunn, Mission Pools A2: Attached are pictures of a deck level gutter (Perimeter gutter covered with natural stone in addition to a vanishing edge. Our plans are done on Visio – I will have Ashley – our designer who did the plans email them to you. If you have any questions give Ashley (He) or myself a call. - Jeffrey B. Clarkson, Florida Bonded Pools

A3: having one drawn now with Neil Anderson lannie at 916-216-8492 - Bill Crank

Extreme or Extended Cantilever Deck over automatic Covers (May 7/10) Q: Have any members installed automatic covers on shaped pools using the extended or extreme cantilever edges as shown in both Cover Pools and Cover Star websites? Would enjoy visiting about design and thoughts. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools (May 7/10) A1: Call Carl Terry - Lombardo Pools A2: Rick, Pictures are worth more than words. When we build them we don’t go deeper then we can reach with our arms 18” to maybe 24” remember you need to be able to get to the tracks down the road for repairs. For plumbing and steel we made a plywood form for the different crews to follow. We had a local welder make the brackets. After the brackets were set we built the beam up to set the stones. Call if you have any questions - Brian Short, Custom Pools Inc

Extreme Cantilever Pool Deck (Jan. 6/10) Q: We are looking to install an extreme cantilever pool deck that will expand over 3 foot Cover Pools suggested that we limit the cantilever to 24" for ease of maintenance. The pool pictured is what Pool Tron calls a 3-circle freeform, but to have the rounded ends it will require an overhang of over 3 feet and a recessed housing deck bridge. Would it be possible to find out if anyone in the Master Pools Guild would have any experience with these types of pools and the pricing for this extreme cantilevered deck? Cover Pools strongly suggests employing a structural engineer to design the deck thickness & reinforcing steel for the extreme cantilevers. Any help that the Master Pools Guild could give us would help greatly - Dennis Sansone, Pool Tron, Inc. (Jan. 6/10) A1: Have you thought of doing a flush mount on deck track. We just did a project with freeform design and Aquamatic cover that turned out very nice. See the Carlisle job on my web site. www.medallionpool.net/#/projects/details/gallery/2 - Mark Dorsey, Medallion Pools A2: We have done this and somewhere I have the engineered drawings. As soon as I find them I’ll send them to you. - Steve, Custom Pools & Patio A3: On the cantilevered deck, I would suggest a minimum thickness of 6 inches with ½ #4 bar on 8 inch center. On the last one I did we built basically a table inside the pool beam ht. with legs to the floor or kick backs to the wall. Make sure your deck width or coping is at least 2x the cantilever or go thicker on the outside of the beam to create the counterbalance. Call me if you need to it might make it easier to explain. - Shane Bosemer, Gym & Swim A4: Suggest you talk with Steve Chandler about this design. - Rick Whiteaker, Pool Tech

Slide Construction (Dec. 11/09) Q: We are about to undertake a custom concrete slide and were hoping for any input that any of you may have. I think we have figured out exactly what we want to do with it but we are open to any suggestions or specific details that any one has to offer. If any of you have construction details or drawings that they can share they would be greatly appreciated. Other specific questions that we had were: What did you use for surface finish? Were there any specific guidelines that you used for design (min/max total angle, length of straight run at discharge, min/max radius in turns, details for working rocks in, etc.)? Again, any and all input will be greatly appreciated. I hope all of you are doing well and are in good spirits for the upcoming Christmas season. - Tony Carter, Gress' Inc. (Dec. 11/09) A1: We have worked with concrete slide a bit. We covered surface with a 1/4" overlay to get the color we needed. To make slick we used 6 coats of the same concrete clear sealer that stamp concrete guys use. We used steel wool between coats and it was very slick. It will be even slicker than fiberglass. I suggest using elevation and flow rates that fiberglass slide mfg. use. A great company that I use for slides 16 to 45' is Dolphin Water Slides out of Tennessee. I suggest using there flow rates and elevations if not there slides. Hope this helps. - Rodney Allison, Allison Pools A2: Tony, been there done that! Big mistake to undertake on yourself! Especially now a days when there are so many slide mfg. that are at your fingertips! The liability alone is worth it! Let slide mfg. do what they do best! There is NO savings when you’re in court! - Jeff Hammerschmidt, High Tech Pools A3: I would not build a slide out of concrete. You will be putting you and your company of losing everything if anybody ever gets hurt. Even if its 25 years from now. You might look at some of the slide manufactures that offer the slide flume only, then incorporate that. - Dennis Watson A4: Olympic makes a very good, easy to install, epoxy coating that comes in multiple colors. We plaster the surface before applying it. It is a thin coat and will take shape of whatever you are coating. - Hans Huber, Huber Pools Inc A6: don’t do concrete do a fiberglass and build your own, you will like it and so will the customer - B Crank

Standard Problem (Dec. 9/09) Q: Jefferson County, Alabama, has a requirement for a minimum unobstructed deck width of eight feet, continuous around all commercial pools. Obviously, the intent of this requirement is to have sufficient area of deck to safely accommodate the swimmers and others who are not actually in the water, but are inside the fence or enclosure; because there is a requirement for additional deck space if the swimming pool is to be used extensively for teaching swimming, lifesaving, aquatics and similar activities. We are presently negotiating on a project which will include a 6,347 square foot multipurpose pool with ample deck area, and a 1,680 square foot, 3'-6" to 4'-6" deep, pool with approximately 100' of infinity edge. The pool's 160 feet + perimeter would have no deck around the 100 feet of infinity edge. tsk! The architect met with the Health Department officials, and after some consideration, the officials refused to waive the requirement. There would be no egress from the pool around the infinity edge - unless somebody scaled the pool wall. Have any of you ever run into this particular problem before? If you have, how did you handle it? We would appreciate your input. - Jack Stephenson, JABCO, Inc. (Dec. 9/09) A1: We deal with the same issue with our health department here in Raleigh, NC. The only way we deal with it is turn the infinity edge into a separate water feature not for swimming. - Michael Gress A2: In California we are required to have four feet around 100% of the pool perimeter including the coping within the four feet. They state the purpose is to allow for emergency access around the entire perimeter due to the width of the pool. In a spa this is also the case with the exception that a maximum of 50% of the perimeter can be just coping providing the coping is no bigger than 12”. In this exception the other 50% of the perimeter must meet the four foot of decking requirement. But then again, in the Land of Fruits and Nuts (California) we would never be allowed to have a negative edge commercial pool…far too enjoyable for the public. We have to go south to Mexico where you can do anything you want without liability! Hope 2010 brings continued success to JABCO and the Stephenson’s - G. Bruce Dunn, Mission Pools Inc. A3: Sorry Mr. Stephenson but we have never run across that before. Jeff. Co. goes directly by the book so you’re going to need a lot of help to get it passed. - David Hurst A4: South Carolina has the same rules governing decking around a pool and we have never been able to get them to move off of this requirement for negative edges on commercial pools. The only thing we have been able to do is have a 10% reduction of the total perimeter without deck. Example: pool perimeter 100 feet---no deck for 10 feet. That is all we have been able to get them to do. - Richard Kintner A5: Utah is only 5 ft. But I have never won that fight either - [email protected] A6: Jefferson County, Alabama, has a requirement for a minimum unobstructed deck width of eight feet, continuous around all commercial pools. Obviously, the intent of this requirement is to have sufficient area of deck to safely accommodate the swimmers and others who are not actually in the water, but are inside the fence or enclosure; because there is a requirement for additional deck space if the swimming pool is to be used extensively for teaching swimming, lifesaving, aquatics and similar activities. We are presently negotiating on a project which will include a 6,347 square foot multipurpose pool with ample deck area, and a 1,680 square foot, 3'-6" to 4'-6" deep, pool with approximately 100' of infinity edge. The pool's 160 feet + perimeter would have no deck around the 100 feet of infinity edge. tsk! The architect met with the Health Department officials, and after some consideration, the officials refused to waive the requirement. There would be no egress from the pool around the infinity edge - unless somebody scaled the pool wall. Have any of you ever run into this particular problem before? If you have, how did you handle it? We would appreciate your input. - Jack Stephenson, Jabco Inc. A7: Jack we are required to install 4 foot minimum deck around all pools and at least 50 percent of a spa perimeter with no exception. Infinity edges are only allowed as rimflows but must have decking behind them. Sorry I couldn’t have been more help. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools

Plaster Sub-contractor (Nov. 24/09) Q: We are looking for a plaster sub-contractor in Mississippi, Louisiana or Alabama that can do river rock or pebble tec plaster finish on residential pools and will be willing to travel to Hattiesburg, MS. Thank you in advance for your help. - Jim Adcock, Adcock Pool, Spa & Billiards (Nov. 24/09) A: Classic Tile should be able to help you out. Here is their contact info. Classic Tile & Plaster 746 Gary Dr. Jackson, MS 39272 (601) 372-0164 – office? (601) 372-0165 – fax. Please let me know if you have any trouble getting in touch with them. - Matthew Lee, Memphis Pool

Aquafin Bonding Issues (Nov. 4/09) Q: I would like to find out which Guild members have had adhesion or bonding issues with Aquafin's 2K/M adhering to their 1K/M product or their 2K/M product bonding direct to a Gunite, Shotcrete or concrete surface. - Brian Garcia, Symphony Pools (Nov. 4/09) A: We use a tremendous amount of 2KM. No problems yet. - Rodney Allison

Altro Flooring (Oct. 30/09) Q: Has anyone ever dealt with a floorcovering product called Altro Marine floorcovering for pool decks? The question that's arisen is in regard to the deck drain running around the perimeter of the pool. It's only 1" wide and we haven't found anything to replace it with in the same dimensions. The floorcovering installers are wondering about how to seal the edge of the flooring at the deck. You would normally heat weld a seam, but you have to attach vinyl to vinyl to do that and in this case that wouldn't work. We just wondered if anyone had ever encountered this material or situation. The specs for the flooring can be found at: www.altro.com/Products/Flooring/Altro-Marine-20.aspx - Lynne Dorsey, Medallion Pool Co (Oct. 30/09) A1: I've an idea.............If you've not solved this by Monday, let me know I've an idea but I'm up to my eyebrows today. I just hope that I don't hurt anyone before the days over. - Roy Reed, Memphis Pool A2: I am not familiar with this product. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools

High End Pool Work – Tiles (Sep. 16/09) Q: We are looking for a tile company that specialize in high end pool work. Need a company to completely tile the inside of a large residential pool. Company needs to be willing to travel to Mississippi. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated. - Jim Adcock, Adcock Pool, Spa & Billiards (Sep. 16/09) A1: There is a local guy here that has traveled throughout the world that does very high end work. His name is Greg Andrews and number is 818 879 1575. He has been featured in many of our trade magazines and has given several tile installation seminars at our trade shows. He is considered the best. - Randy Bauer, Symphony Pools A2: I have a guy in Sun Valley that does excellent work. He is used to very high end clients. He might be available depending on timing. If you don’t already have someone he would be worth talking to. He is a quality person too. - Steve Chandler, Custom Pools and Patio

Bead blasting water line tile (July 22/09) Q: We are looking into bead blasting as a method of cleaning water line tile. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. - John Bohrer, Galloway Pools (July 22/09) A1: You might also look into soda blasting. It is less aggressive but it might not be aggressive enough for your purposes. I do know that it is used for graffiti remediation. Check with a local boat yard...they also use it for blasting bottom paint. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A2: In Vegas we have very hard water. I have a company blast for us, they use a very small unit with a gasoline portable compressor. They buy their beeds from SCP I believe. I think you could buy one of harbor freight small sandblasters and do it yourself. You have to be careful not to damage the tile. They also use a product from SCP to coat the tile after which makes it shine. - Scott Burton A3: Our only experience with bead blasting was on a deck surface where the subcontractor used a “steel” bead to remove the surface. Those steel beads have created a major rust headache that continues today. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools & Spas A4: I've never done it, but I wouldn't use any kind of sandblasting or bead blasting. Particularly, if it has a hard glaze finish on it. If straight acid doesn't do it, forget it. - Al Rizzo, Rizzo Pools A5: We use glass beads and other media based on tile type and scale build up. I can have my renovation field manager review with you our success and hurdles we encountered the past few years. - Mark Ragel, Patio Pools

Negative Edge Wall (July 22/09) Q: Hope everyone is surviving this economy. We have been experiencing some crack on our negative edge walls about 3 or 4 vertically straight up & down. They are leaking pool water through them. Has anyone experience this & what is causing the cracks. We have had 3 do this & they are large radius edge walls about 30' to 40'. Pool wall is 12" thick 8" center steel 3/8 rods Shotcrete 8 sac concrete - Dennis Sansone, Pool Tron, Inc. (July 22/09) A1: When were they built? When did the cracks appear? Were they built with a footing? - Steve Chandler, Custom Pools & Patio A2: On those long vanishing edges, we are placing 12” thick walls with a double mat of ½” rods with it then kept moist (soaker hoses and burlap) until cured. This followed by good waterproofing, historically Xypex or Acuron 2000, and are now considering the routine use of Hydroban. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools & Spas A3: What’s the exterior finish, where the water runs over? Did you guys waterproof both the inside and outside of the dam wall with a negative and positive waterproofing material? - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A4: Does your wall have 2 curtains of steel? - Tom Giuffrida, Patio Pools A5: This is happening for a couple of reasons. 1) One mat of steel in the wall is not enough to limit the expansion and contraction of the concrete – especially with a wall that has a wet and dry side to it as well as two different temperatures on both sides of the wall. 2) As mentioned above this wall has different conditions on both sides of the wall and it is common for these walls to crack – the trick is to limit the size of these cracks where they don’t leak – the other trick is to cover this wall in such a way that if it does have shrinkage cracks that the finish material hides these cracks. Use of membranes under the finishes is a good way to hide these cracks. - Mike Nelson, Neuman Pools A6: You should be using two layers of steel. One on the water or pool side w/ no. 3 bars at 12”on center with 2” of conc. Coverage and another mat of steel on the outside with the same size and spacing or larger depending on the length and height of your vanishing edge wall. You need to be talking to an engineer on your next one. One layer of steel is not enough to overcome the bending stresses induced in the wall. You are welcome to call me anytime to discuss further. I always

waterproof my VE walls prior to plaster, use Aquron 1200. You can search the internet for this product. - Mark Dorsey, Medallion Pool A7: We have always used a double curtain of 8 in.OC #3 for the vanishing edge wall... - Tim Rainey, Rainey Pools A8: The last wall we had "engineered" required #5 rebar @ 2' centers on the vertical and I think it was #4 horizontally. I thought this was overkill. Most walls we use a double row of #3 @ 6" centers with 2 rows of #4 horizontally at the beam of each wall. We've never had a failure. All of our walls are 12". One wall of #3 seems a little lite to me. - Larry Rambaud A9: We use 1/2 on vanishing edge walls with triple mat. Sounds like you do no have enough steel. Also we waterproof walls on both sides with laticrete waterproofing. - Byron Graham, Paradise pools of Canada Limited A10: While I’m not an engineer, I did stay at a Holiday Inn recently. My sense is that you have a structural issue with these free-standing walls. #3 rebar on 8” centers doesn’t sound very robust for a 12” thick Gunite wall. I think you would be better served with a double curtain of rebar on a 12” wall. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools

Negative Edge with additional pictures (July 23/09) Q: I put wrong info, it is double cage steel at 8" center with 3/8 rebar. It’s sounding like the issue is 3/8 rebar wall is 12" thick - Dennis Sansone, Pool Tron, Inc. (July 23/09)

A1: Dennis I am not a steel engineer but i would put a strip at the top of the cage and some extra perimeter bars at the top. - Scott Burton A2: Hi Dennis – we haven’t had that happen, thank god, but we use a double wall of ½” rebar, 12” o.c. in that wall. We’ve had ice damage behind the veneer, but nothing structural. - Ruth Aveta, Creative Master Pools A3: Here's a link for the waterproofing: http://www.buildingsystems.basf.com/documents/tsl_tdg.pdf I forgot to tell you this material allows the moisture inside the dam wall to escape and you can mortar or tile right to this material. We also always use this for the waterline tile (about 1' down from top of bond beam) - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A4: The last wall we had "engineered" required #5 rebar @ 2' centers on the vertical and I think it was #4 horizontally. I thought this was overkill. Most walls we use a double row of #3 @ 6" centers with 2 rows of #4 horizontally at the beam of each wall. We've never had a failure. All of our walls are 12". One wall of #3 seems a little lite to me. - Larry Rambaud

A5: You probably should have a structural engineer look at this. On these walls we also use 12” thick walls but use two mats of #4 bar at 12” centers. - Mike Nelson, Neuman Pools

Indoor/outdoor pool (July 13/09) Q: I am currently designing a pool that needs to be half enclosed for winter use and the other half on outside for warm season use. I was thinking either to have removable isolation panel for winter use or a auto pool cover for the exterior part for the winter. Has anyone have experience with building or designing such? - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. (July 13/09) A1: Several years ago we built a job that was actually two pools – an indoor pool and an outdoor pool with a swim lane that passed between them, they could be bulk headed off with a piece of Plexiglas. Of course, this is Florida and we don’t’ have a problem with freeze/thaw. Your mileage may vary! Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A2: We have done one project for a hotel with the pool indoors and extending under a wall to an outdoor pool. The outdoor part of the pool is insulated in the winter using an insulating floating balls the hotel purchases themselves. Our concern for some of the thoughts you have is someone getting trapped under the cover if they can get out of the indoor into the outdoor part of the pool vessel. It was considered to place a net or barrier but this other direction was settled on. We don’t want anyone trapped under water. - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools A3: We have designed and built some pools like this so it is quite possible to do. There are several ways to deal with the “transition area” that separates the indoor from the outdoor pool. For the physical barrier something like an “overhead door” with glass panels works well so it could be positioned up or down as the situation demands. There are other ways with heavy duty plastic strips and such but the overhead door if possible (depending on the width of the opening and the type of structure on the wall) would be in our opinion the most successful over the long term. When the outdoor portion is to be closed for the winter in our climate (with cold weather and lots of snow) we find that the most successful approach is of course to use an automatic cover on the pool for certain (depending on the shape it may need two covers) but also to have a removable rigid structure to put over the exposed part. In one instance we used a “glass structure” to cover the exposed end and this worked well. The key is the shape of the pool; in this instance the exposed part of the pool was only a “lane” swim area so it was only about 10’ wide by about 30’ long so it was easy to cover. - Lawrence Dary, Master Pools Alta Ltd. A4: We have a couple of this type pool we service. One is an apartment house complex. This pool is necked down to about a 5 foot opening between the two pools and they have a large sheet of plastic that they insert in grooves in the wall opening. This separates the pool for winter use only on the indoor part. They then cover the outdoor pool with a mesh cover for the winter. The other pool is a private individuals. The pool is a 20 x 50 foot pool. They have an auto cover that cover the entire pool. The auto cover is very important on the indoor part to control moisture indoors. This pool also has a glass garage door that comes down and stops at the cover during winter use. So in the winter the cover is opened half way. The only thing I don't like about this pool is that it is possible to swim under the pool cover which could be a real danger. - Brent Foulger, Swim Clean Inc.

Wet Edge Pool (July 1/09) Q: Has anyone designed a wet edge pool using gutters only, no surge tank? - Ruth Aveta, Creative Master Pools Inc. (July 1/09) A1: Doing one now stainless steel gutter grass to the edge of the water. We are using a 12" pipe in the wall as our surge tank - Scott A2: I have. I made the walls 24" thick with an 8" gutter 3' deep. - Byron Graham, Paradise pools of Canada Limited A3: Yes we have done this several times and it is really not complicated to do. There are several things that must be paid attention to and they are as follows: 1. the “gutter” must have the capacity to absorb the water displaced by the swimmers in the pool. The volume of the gutter must have the

capacity to handle a minimum of 8 gallons per swimmer up to the maximum number of swimmers in the pool up to as much as 1 gallon per square foot of pool area. To use a simple example a pool that has 800 square feet of surface area would (by our calculation) have a maximum bather load of about 50 people. We would calculate that the minimum gutter capacity would be 50 (swimmers) times 8 (gallons per swimmer) for a total minimum surge capacity of 400 gallons. Over and above this there would need to be some capacity to have a certain amount of water in the gutter at all time (to prevent noise in the gutter and to prevent air from getting sucked into the pump) and for this (depending on the shape and profile of the gutter) we plan on a minimum of 3” of water. 2. We prefer to use several “drop out” locations in the gutter as compared to a single “drop out” but it is an option to slope the gutter to drain to a single drop out if that is your preference. We just find that sloping a concrete gutter is not real easy to do well but certain it can be done. 3. The automatic water level control system then has to be set to monitor the water level in the gutter. When the water level in the gutter is below the minimum operating level set at startup it needs to fill up the gutter back to normal and all is well. What it really boils down to is that in most respects the sizing of the gutter capacity is similar to sizing the surge tank. - Lawrence Dary, Master Pools Alta Ltd. A4: Yes- we have done several with no surge tank. In fact the majority of ours is done that way. Our gutters are 6-8" wide (depending on what material is used to go over the top of the gutter). We adjust the depth of the gutter depending on the surface area of the pool. - Jeff Ast, Shasta Industries A5: Yes! I Do NOT recommend it! It will not perform as well! Call me if any further questions about it. - Jeff, High Tech Pools A6: We have. You can do this by making to different bodies of water or infinity edge and you can have the entire main pool a gutter (wet edge) and flow back into the bottom pool. Just make sure you do your water calculations so the bottom pool is large enough to accommodate the water displacement of the swimmers and the extra amount of gallons you need to raise the main pool water level in order to get your perimeter overflow. Give me a call or shoot me an email, if I can help any further - Michael Gress, Gress Inc. A7: My name is Julio Limon and I’m the Director of Operations & Projects. We’re located in Monterrey, MX. Last year we built for the local government a 3,000 square feet aquatic construction (I’m attaching some pictures). I changed the blue prints + the hydraulic project in order not to use a surge tank, just gutters. Let me tell you that it worked out perfectly. Having said so, what is it that you need to know about this? - Julio Limon, Regio Akua

A8: We have done several on commercial pools using what we call a “balance line”. If you’re interested, I can send you a sketch. - Mark Reed, Memphis Pool Supply

Dome House (May 13/09) Q: Have someone who wants a dome house shotcreted. Its 220 yds. Has anyone done this and how difficult is it to do. I've always said no in the past but times are different now. - Dave Beattie, Beattie Pools A1: Check with Jim Mowry Sr. Mowry Pools in Austin Texas.. I believe he has... - Tim Rainey, Rainey Pools A2: We have shot two of these and they are a very dirty job especially when you are spraying straight up. Your field guys will really love you and clean-up is a bear. It’s good money though. We had the owner supply all the required lifts and all the steel and form work was completed before we moved in to spray. - Michael Nelson, Neuman Pools A3: I remember seeing a house similar to what you are talking about in Jacksonville, FL. I’d suggest you contact Jeff Clarkson at Florida Bonded. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A4: Dave we are currently designing a wine cellar with a vaulted roof. We plan to Gunite the floor and walls and pour the roof. I'm having Neil Anderson engineer the structure. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools A5: I have done three (3) so far. All of them were preset, form steel, everything was prepared for us. All I had to do was shoot them. They were within 100 yards, which we shot in one (1) day. You are working up in the air, so someone has to build staging and safety device for the men working up there, particularly the shooter. It's a lot more costly than shooting a pool. The last one I did was 5 years ago. - Al Rizzo. Rizzo Pools A6: I honestly think life is too short for a "Poolguy" to take that project. If you were in to bridges or that type of shotcrete application you would be better set up for it. Now......my experience..... I took on a barn project with a 20' hi dome roof. The steel tying was challenging but doable. The problem was between shotcrete loads and if some mixes were too wet, the material would fall off the ceiling. Once it starts to "sluff" sometimes it doesn't stop at just a couple of yards. Now you have the problem, first of getting it off the floor, second getting it back into the hopper, third if it can't get back into the pump, there goes the profits. That's my experience. Take it for what it's worth. - Gary Erickson, Beattie Pools

Plaster Crews (May 7/09) Q: What is the typical size of your plaster crews, and do they do one or more pools a day? Deborah Hunt, Beauty Pools, Inc. / Kayak Pool Corp. (May 7/09) A1: Plaster crew: 4-5 members- can do up to 3-4 a day depending size, detail, location and drive time. Pebble crews 5-7 members- can do up to 2-3 a day depending on the same above plus if the rig will hold enough material without going over weight. - Jeff Ast, Shasta Industries A2: Our plaster crews consist of six guys per crew. We run 2 crews. We like to plaster 2 pools per day per crew....4 pools a day is our goal!! - Tricia Barnes, Riverbend Sandler Pools A3: Normally, we plaster one pool a day, but remember most of our pools are 7 ft.² and bigger. The normal crew, is five to six men. We will add man as pools get larger. Or if we use exposed aggregate finishes. Yesterday, four men did two spa and a wading pool at one site. Left the office at 7 AM and crew returned at 3:30 PM. Approximately one hour to and from the site. We only plaster approximately 60 jobs a year most are new pools, balanced rehabs. The same masons, will also do coping and tile work and some of shoot shotcrete, when needed. All of them, get paid by the hour. Most of them, have been with me for many years. - Al Rizzo, Rizzo Pools A4: We have 5 men on the job for sure and sometimes more depending on the size of the pool. We never do more than one pool a day. Kathy Neutz Quality Pools - MN

A5: Our shoot crew consists of 4 people and we generally shoot 1 pool per day except on large commercial jobs we use a day laborer & they may take 2 days to complete. - Kristie A. Gordy, Nassau Pools Construction, Inc. A6: Our plaster crews consist of 5-7 people and they usually do 2 pools a day. - Louise Donahue Barrington Pools

Mold Issues (May 5/09) Q: We have a customer with an indoor pool that has a mold problem. She received an estimate of $60K to clean it up, has anyone come across this also. She has an auto cover. We tried to tell her that her dehumid system was probably undersized? - Deborah Hunt, Beauty Pools, Inc. / Kayak Pool Corp. (May 5/09) A1: If the mold is on the outside of the pool and within the building it is an HVAC problem, if the mold/algae is inside of the pool (e.g., water line, tile, skimmers) it is water chemistry. - Steve Brooks, Berry Pool A2: What you told your client is what I think is the solution to the problem. Most of the times either the dehumid system or the ventilation systems are undersized. Is this a new pool? If not, has anything in the operations procedure has been changed that might have started the mold problem. Julio Limon A3: She is probably missing the vapour barrier in the walls and ceiling. - Byron Graham

Leak Problem (Apr. 2/09) Q: I have a very special leak problem and this client is important to us. We have sold Leak Sealer to the client (the installer of the Air bubbler), only knowing that he had a small leakage problem somewhere. The leak is only noticed because the pool is built on the second floor of a building, a hotel or similar, and water sips out in very small quantities, but in sight of the public. I have not seen the place, and it is far away from us. The pipe belongs to a floor air jet. The leakage has been treated with Leaksealer several times with good result, but not permanently. It seems a special bypass was installed in order to take water with Leaksealer from the pool overflow with a pump and pass it through the pipe and back to the pool through the air pads in the floor. The pages 36 and 37 of the pdf Air bubbler type 75 explain a typical installation. The blower is 2,9 kw. The pipe DN 80 means the internal diameter is 8cm. The air bubbler is an air pad 75cm x 75cm and gives 255 m3 of air per hour through holes in the pad. I have told them to have the pump working for 48 hours, to let the product harden. They have not done this before. But I would be grateful for a more exact explanation what would be the very best way to work. - Charlotte, Sanden Trading (Apr. 2/09) A: Are you sure the leak is in the piping We had a similar problem with an elevated Gunite hot tub all the plumbing held 30 lbs. pressure we would seal around all the pipes we would stop the leak and after a month it would start dripping again. Then we epoxy painted the hot tub it would stop and after a month it would start dripping we found out that the owner had been draining the hot tub and refilled with cold water once a month and then it would start leaking. The expansion and contraction of Gunite/plaster vs. PVC piping would be enough to make it start leaking. Can you build a pan under the hot tub? - Brian Short, Custom Pools

Lazy River (Jan. 30/09) Q: We need info from anyone with lazy river construction experience. also bar and under water stools - Sherry, Adcock Pool, Spa & Billiards (Dec. 1/08) A1: We have done many Lazy Rivers of various kinds; what kind of information do you need? Let us know and we will try to help if we can. - Lawrence Dary, Master Pools Alta Ltd.

A2: We regularly build bar stools out of concrete, forming them with Sonotubes. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A3: We have finished 2 Lazy Rivers. We had a few hiccups but in the end all is well. Do you have to design the propulsion system? Are you responsible for the structure design and width/depth? How long is the total river length? In the end.......There are several pool consulting firms that have many of these under complete and up and running. Some of the designs we saw were slapped together with huge energy wasting propulsion systems. Let me know and I can contact you with details. - Mark, Patio Pools

Q: Does anyone have any plans on how to build a lime stone rock waterfall with a grotto and water slide? I would also like to know if anyone has any plans on a gas stone fire pit. - Travis Hogan, Fiesta Pools and Spas, LLC (Oct. 28/08) A1: Call Shelby Ternan who manages our production group. He can give you some guidance on this. 469-576-7969 - Glen E. Rich, Riverbend Sandler A2: This is a pool with grotto/waterfall we did a few years ago. The slide actually starts 65' away from the entry to the pool and is 25' higher than the pool. If I did it again I would use a dolphin water slide mfg. They have several colors& lengths to choose from. I will send you the sketch if you like. - Rodney Allison, Allison Pools

Q: I have been working with a builder that we have done many hotel pools & spas with. They have asked me to help them with a budget figure for a wave pool shell. Has anyone done this that would have helpful information available? - Deborah Hunt, Beauty Pools, Inc. / Kayak Pool Corp. (Oct. 7/08) A1: We actually created an entire set of plans for 2, 3 wave pools. That's been some time back but Mike Gard, Pool Builders Warehouse, is looking for them. Maybe we have it/them on a disc. At any rate, we'll see what he finds. It'd be easy enough to come up w/the budget number once you've a set of plans in hand. Please give my regards to Capt'n Dave Thill. I'll collect my $3 he owes me in Montreal. - Roy Reed, Memphis Pool A2: We built the wave pool at King's Dominion Water Park last year. Our part of the construction was for the shell only and some of the decking. We also did the excel surface of the sides (3'0" below hand grip - up to deck) we did this for $400,000.00. Of course size has an impact. - Kathy Gill, Douglas Aquatics of the Rivah

Q: We are working on designing and building an Indoor/Outdoor Swimming Pool that is connected between the two. We would like to know if anyone that has experienced this could give us a few pros and cons on what to watch out for and what works best. Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. - Harold Allison, Allison Landscape and Pool Co. (Sep. 15/08) A1: Make sure the HVAC system is strong enough to keep the indoor portion comfortable by removing the humidity. If not, the customer ride you like a cheap horse! Many indoor projects fail to address this arena or construction. - Steve Brooks, Berry Pool and Supply A2: Hi Rodney- yes we built one about 10 years ago and still maintain it today. Ron knows more about the technical end, so I’ll forward this to him. He’ll also be in Montreal so you can talk to him there if you are going. - Ruth Aveta, Creative Master Pools Inc.

Q: Hi. We are building an infinity edge pool with fiber optic laminars coming back over the infinity edge and into the pool. Has anyone done this and if so should the placement of the laminars be below the catch basin or on each side of the catch basin. Thank you for your help. - Tim Hudson, Mirage Pool & Spa (Aug. 11/08) A: Attached you will find two pictures of a pool we did last year with a vanishing edge and laminars. We put the suction in the pool to a 1/3 HP sta-rite dyna-wave with a bypass on the return. If you have any questions, let me know. - Cory Reeder, Master Pools by Paul Haney

Q: Hi, has anyone had any problems with plumbing natural gas or propane into a recessed BBQ pit area attached to a swimming pool. I am getting ready to build one of these and have heard some horror stories about explosions and fires due to the customer leaving the gas on. Any suggestions or would I be better to leave it out completely. - Tim Hudson, Mirage Pool & Spa (Aug. 11/08) A1: We have built many lp and natural grilling stations and have had no problems. - Jeff Mittelman, Artistic Pools A2: I have never done one but as you know we are a sue happy society I would at least have a licensed plumber install the gas line and have it inspected by a city official and signed off on. But if the owner blows himself up you know who they are going to call! - Terry Smith, Atlantis Pools A3: We've built many gas fire pits and bbq's attached to the pool on several different occasions and have never had any problems, just make sure you vent from underneath. The manufacture should have recommended ventilation on the specs. Usually, I will install louvered vents on the sides or front, really depending on pool/hardscape layout. I would also have a waiver in your contract in case a homeowner isn't smart enough to know if they can't light it within 15 seconds to turn off the gas and wait a minute or two, so they don't get the hairs burned off their arm. - Michael Gress

A4: Propane is heavier than air and as such, could present an explosion danger. On the other hand, natural gas is lighter than air and I don't think that as such, no such danger should be present. Now, whether there is a code issue is another story! - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A5: Providing the natural gas bbq is open to air then there should not be a problem as natural gas is lighter than air and will rise. Propane is completely different as this gas is heavier than air and will settle down on the floor of the bbq pit area. Our building departments will not let any lowered pit areas to have propane installed including fire pits. In years past we were allowed to put a drain in the bottom of the pit and run a line to daylight but not anymore. The home that Anita and I have has a sunken living room and we had to remove the propane burner in the fireplace because of the lowered room. As I understand it the real issue is at the starting of the flame since someone that leaves the bbq on most likely will have the flame running. Of course very little can be done about a client that is foolish, dumb or drunk enough to leave the gas on once the cooking is completed and the flame is extinguished. - G. Bruce Dunn, Mission Pools Inc. A6: I would check with Grand Effects. I believe they have automated shut-offs. - Steve Chandler, Custom Pools & Patios A7: Tim we have done several. I think as long as the area is large enough an explosion is unlikely. That being said it would be a good idea to use an automatic system (gas valve) that would only be open when the flame was lit. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools, Inc. A8: I also did one of these last year as well. Attached you will find pictures. From my experience, do not go cheap on the grill. The one in this pool was a 54" Lynx grill. This had its own regulator, and we checked and re-checked to make sure there were not any leaks in the line. Once again, if you have any questions, please let me know. - Cory Reeder, Master Pools by Paul Haney, Inc.

Q: As a follow-up to my previous e-mail, I would like to ask the membership if they have experienced any detrimental effects from tiling pools, i.e. insurance claims due to accidents, etc. I am concerned about the potential for lawsuits etc., particularly since the homeowner is looking to have the tiled installed by his sub-contractor before our permits have been finaled out. - Kevin Ford (Aug. 4/08) A1: Kevin, Our only experience would be bonding failure due to using either unsuitable materials or not waiting the required amount of cure time for the adhesive. - Steve Chandler A2: Kevin, We have done several all-tile spas and a couple of small all-tile pools. I've never heard a complaint about slipperiness. However, we have always used a small (3/4"-1") tile. I think that there is enough grout space that it maintains sufficient traction. Having said that, I'd darn sure have the owner sign some kind of disclaimer before you let another sub tile the pool. Or else finish the pool and then, when the pool belongs to him, he can do what he wants AFTER you've had a final inspection. Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools

A3: Hi Kevin, It seems the contract with the pool company excluded tile. The homeowner then got a tile guy to tile the pool. Then the pool was inspected, tile included. Now if the tile falls off, isn't there a problem between the tile guy and the homeowner? The building inspector that inspects the tile for being secure does not know if these new positions (metaKaolyn) were in the plaster and the tile mortar mix. The inspector for expansive soil and compacting could have messed up and let expansive soil go as is. The pressures on the deck & pool walls can open up expansion joints between the deck and the coping letting water in and the tile could come off. I believe 90% of all tile problems are related to bad deck expansion joints. This was probably, way too much. - Michael Orr

Q: I have a customer that is currently under construction that would like to have his entire pool tiled with glass tile. We have never done an entire pool with glass tile before. It is my understanding that the pool should be plastered before tiling. His installer does not want it plastered first. I would like to get input from the membership on what the best method is to proceed. Thank you. - Kevin Ford (Aug. 1/08) A1: Kevin, through our experience with an all tile pool we have found that there must be a brown coat or plaster finish to waterproof the Gunite or shotcrete shell. It has been our experience also that it is best to have the tile mason do this pre finish so that they are responsible for floating the rough surface of the shell and then lay on the tile with proper grout. I would be sure that you have a mason that has a lot of experience with glass tile. The first glass tile job we did many years ago had to be totally redone due to the inexperience of the mason. Good luck and we hope to see you in Montreal. Ron Coker, Sr., Artistic Pools, Inc. A2: Kevin: We do a lot of these and my husband happens to be a master tile setter. We apply a mud base on the pool first prior to the tile setter’s thin setting materials. Here are some things you should be aware of: The smaller the tile IE 1”x1” or ¾” x ¾” the more precise you will need to be with the mudbase/plaster application. Else you will see every bump and the sharp edges of tiles exposed. Sounds like you are not responsible for the tile installation at all. But if you are be aware that in pools with rounded edges (where pool floor meets walls or at wall corners) the tile setter will need to make a lot of cuts at that point. Each tile is hand cut individually. The tile manufacturers also recommend only using white grout as it is stronger. Are you supplying the tile? There are a few things to watch for when buying glass tile as well. Let me know. I’d be happy to fill you in on what we’ve come across. It’s a lovely product but requires care in installation and not all glass tile is created equal. - Carla R. Sovernigo-Pawella, Alka Pool Construction Ltd. A3: Kevin: I strongly suggest you call John Harris in our office (760.743.2605) to talk with him about glass tile and all tile pools. Many of us have learned from the school of hard knocks about the adventure you are about to take and John has over 40 years experience with the questions you are asking. Please tell John that I had you call. I have copied him on this e-mail so he should know you will be calling. - G. Bruce Dunn, Mission Pools Inc. A4: Hi There, Glass tiles can be a real trap. The pool needs to be rendered first and then depending on weather the tiles have a string back or paper face depends on the type of adhesive you use. The adhesive is critical as these tiles are notorious for popping off. Mapei, do some very good glues as do Lattercrete and ASA amongst others. Hope this helps - Carlos Morgan A5: We have completely tiled with glass before. We parge the complete pool first prior to application of the tile. We use a typical parge mix with an acrylic bonding agent. To set the tile we use a premium setting material from tec called superflex or Laticrete premium. Once we installed we use the Laticrete spectra lock for grouting. If you have any question please do not hesitate to call me. - Byron Graham A6: Kevin we have done numerous glass mosaic pools. Contact Ray Coral w/ Mosaics (305)447-1977 they are the best. - Frank, Pool Tech Miami A7: Kevin, We ALWAYS plaster first. The reason for this is to waterproof the Gunite shell. Yeah, I know...tile is waterproof and so is grout! If I were you I would demand that the pool be plastered first. - Randy Pickelmann, Curtis Pools A8: Kevin, The reason some folks plaster the pool before tiling is to waterproof the shell otherwise you will have constant leaks as the grout deteriorates. We have done that in the past but now we waterplug all fitting penetrations, apply Cook’s Hydroseal (Thouroughseal with an Acrylic additive) to waterproof the shell then float the shell with a mix of cement and sand, then apply the tile. It is

almost like plastering it but without the marble dust. This seems to work for us. I hope this helps. Ron Coker Jr., Artistic Pools

Q: Has any member successfully used a tube slide recently? We have used Summit's slides in the past, and although nice quality and nice people, the slide compresses and distorts when encased in concrete to put inside an embankment. We need to find one 14' long x 24" to 30" wide. - Ruth Aveta, Creative Master Pools Inc. (Jul. 9/08) A1: Try Dolphin Slides in Tennessee. - Jeff, Artistic Pools A2: Ruth we've used one from White Water. So far so good! - Mike Geremia, President Geremia Pools, Inc. A3: We have used tube slides successfully from Professional Parks, Inc in TN. (731.632.3700. www.ppifun.com). If this is a totally custom designed slide keep them on the hook for all layout and installation instructions (bolt patterns). The last one we installed was great quality but their instruction was not given and we had to put it together by trial and error (lots of man-hours). They have been good to communicate with otherwise with a great quality. Our experience with Summit’s quality has been marginal at best and we have never used one of their tube slides. Probably won’t use their product any longer. Good luck, - Rick Vaughan, Vaughan Pools & Spas A4: Ruth: We have not but are looking at one now. Info: Ron Coker, or Randy Bauer - Tim Rainey A5: You might try Natural Structures out of Baker City, OR. Their web site is www.naturalstructures.com - Taylor Stanley, Douglas Aquatics

Q: Does anyone have experience on sandy bottom pools. (Like the one in Le Meridien Hotel in Tahiti). Thanks - Kay Valenzuela, Aquasport (Jun. 25/08) A1: Kay, we have no experience with that type of installation. Good luck! - Steve Ast, Shasta Industries A2: Kay we installed a sandy beach entry on a residential pool several years ago. Because it was residential they couldn't keep up with the maintenance so it was taken out. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools

Q: I have a client that wants to look at some all tile pools. They do not care where they are located. They will travel to any location. They would like to see more than one if possible. Thanks. - James, Madison Pools (Jun. 2/08) A1: Aloha, Well have three all tile pools on Maui, we will be starting up a new one at the end of summer. Thanks - Paula, Huber Pools A2: We have plenty of tiled pools in England as nearly all of ours are fully mosaic tiled, but that may be a bit far to travel! Regards - Ian Storr, Falcon Pools Ltd A3: James, We have an all glass tile interior finish pool. I'll check to see if we have others. - Andrea, Aqua Blue Pools A4: James, We have a commercial project at Pelican Hill in Newport Beach, Ca. The project is nearing completion and has a 128' diameter round pool, a smaller oval pool, and a couple of spas that are all tile. It also has another smaller 1/4 circle pool that is being built by another company. The oval pool is completed and the larger pool has all the tile completed but has not been started up yet. The cost of the tile installation is over $1.5 million dollars. We have done other residential pools with tile but unfortunately these clients rarely allow people to view them once they are completed. Let me know if you need any other information. - Jeff Dunn, Mission Pools

A5: James, we surely have done are share but usually these are our most affluent customers & we could only offer you pictures of the jobs or show them the commercial / college jobs that we have done. Although we do have a lot of all tile whirlpools we could show. Let me know if I can be of any further help. - Jeff, Madison Pools A6: Not a problem. Office hours M-F 8a-4p. - Lisa Hardouin, Paradise Pools & Spas A7: James, We have two all tile pools in San Antonio we can show. I have one mason I trust to do all tile pools. He has one and sometimes two helpers so he works slow. - Keith Zars, Keith Zars Pools

Q: Hello members, Can anyone help me with monolithic gutter calculations? Thanks so much! Debbie Hunt, Beauty Pools (Apr. 28/08) A1: Good Morning All, I hope all is well. Please direct this enquiry to Peter Friis, [email protected]. I'm sure he can provide information. Please give everybody my best and have a great season. P.S. Were glad to see the "Bills" come to Toronto. Regards, - Stan Church GibSan Pools A2: Debbie, We can help, we will need to know all the specifics. - Louise, Barrington Pools, Inc

Q: I am looking for recommendations on completing an all tile pool. Creative Tile wants us to plaster the pool first, water cure it for 28 days, then install the tile. The tile manufacturer is recommending the use of TEC Hydra-flex or Red Guard to provide the waterproofing. I have all of the technical data to read over although I am interested to know if any of the Master Pools builders might have extensive experience with this type of installation that might streamline the decision process. Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools, Inc. (Apr. 9/08) A: When we do a complete pool in tile, we shoot the pool, let it cure for 28 days, apply a waterproofing membrane (from are local supplier) and then install the tiles. We never had any problems with this method. - Mark Fournier, Piscines Bonaventure Inc.

Q: I am looking for 3' bonding grid for around pool without deck. Inspector is asking for stainless steel so don't rust. I know it is out there somewhere. - Dennis Sansone, Pool Tron, Inc. (Apr. 4/08) A1: Dennis we are not required to put anything in place when there is no deck. I'll forward an email I received from Mark Reed regarding this. - Mike Geremia, Geremia Pools A2: Only bonding clamps I have seen that do not rust are the ones with brass screws. We found them at Home Depot. Our inspector does not want to see clamps without brass screws for bonding either. Hope this helps - Rodney Allison, Allison Pools