Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/27 00:01 _____________________________________

Fellow Knights, Due to the way I am planning my army, my Knight Errants will be the sons, grandsons, nephews, etc. of my other Knights. Obviously, I would like to show their lineage on their shields. Having looked into the matter, I discovered the concept of cadencies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency). These would seem the obvious way of going about the above, and I had indeed already thought of devising a similar method to displaying the Knights' family relationships. However, reading a number of sources, I discovered that the rules of cadency were not always strictly followed historically, and that sons sometimes used the same coat of arms as their fathers. I now face three different ways of painting my Knights Errant to display their lineage. 1) Simply use the eldest (e.g. father's) Knight's shield for all Knights of that family. This would make things easy, but at the same time, it doesn't offer much information, and I am hoping to be able to make each Knight into a character in his own right. So who is brother, son and nephew of whom would be cool to display! 2) I could use the traditional rules of cadency linked above and available elsewhere. 3) I could also devise my own method, possibly incorporating the small transfers from the Knight and Men at Arms transfer sheets. E.g. small black shield in top right corner denoting 1st son, etc. A further issue which requires resolving is how to go about a situation where a father has two sons and e.g. one grandson. Seeing as all may be in combat at once, how would this be resolved with cadencies? Perhaps a further usage of transfers? E.g. small black shield top right corner denoting 1st son of father, and small black shield in top left corner denoting that father is first son of grandfather? Anyway, here I am brainfarting away. The reason I decided to post here was to see if any of you other Gentlemen have had any experience with this sort of thing? Do any of you use this pattern when painting your Knights? Or does anyone know of a particularly cool system that I could adopt? ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Vulpine - 2010/11/27 00:38 _____________________________________

It sounds like a cool idea, but one thing im thinking is wouldnt the grandson of a knight have a knight for a father and therefore use his fathers heraldry? ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/27 00:59 _____________________________________

Indeed, and that is one of the problems. If a Knight's son has his father's shield, only with a cadency on it (be it the traditional ones linked to or one of the small transfers) then an issue arises with his son in turn. That's why one of the ideas I had was with a further mark in a different part of the shield. Using... ehh... ascii art of questionable quality: FATHER .____ | . . . .| |. . . . | |. . . . | \.../ .\ . ./ . .\/ Forums - The Round Table of Bretonnia

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SON .____ | . . .X| |. . . . | |. . . . | \.../ .\ . ./ . .\/ GRANDSON .____ |Y. . .X| |. . . . | |. . . . | \.../ .\ . ./ . .\/ X would be a cadence displaying the Son's position as first, second, etc. son. Y would be a cadence displaying the Father's relation to his father, i.e. which numbered son his father was. These are the sort of ideas I've been rolling over, what do you chaps think? ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Somebodyorother - 2010/11/27 23:46 _____________________________________

I'm planning the same thing. The lord (father) has his hearldry, his son (if married) has his own hearldry (displayed on the rear shields of his horse barding, front barding has the fathers) and possibly per pale or with a border (father | son) on his shield with the proper cadence. What I'm going to do for the grandsons is use the Lords hearldry (the grandfather) quartered with their fathers. So for his grandsons, the (fathers design) will be shown in the top left and bottom right corner. The son will have his fathers hearldry in the other 2 corners. Edit: Oh and each son is responsible for bringing his own soldiers, so there will be at least half of the M@A with the lords hearldry and a few for each knight with their masters hearldry. ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/28 00:04 _____________________________________

Thanks for the excellent idea, Sir Somebodyorother! Sounds like an interesting way of solving the issue! I am considering granting my Knights their own coat of arms when they become KotR rather than when they marry, as this fits suitably with Bretonnia. I would be interesting in hearing more about the background of your army; you too seem to have put a lot of thought into creating a backdrop for your army! If you're interesting, cast a glance of my post The Levy of the Margrave, in the Great Hall, to see my approach to doing this. ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Ingund Of Brionne - 2010/11/28 09:59 _____________________________________

this probabley doesnt help you, but im using a different system, though it is only very slightly similar to yours KE-have only colours no devices, so if they are related to another knight they share his colours not devices KOTR- retain theyre colours from "erranthood" and have they're own personal device as theyre heraldry, this is related to Forums - The Round Table of Bretonnia

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theyre errant. QK- Retain colours but replace devices with fleur de lis GK have the same colours and device as they had as KOTR but with the grail image added n.b-The important families which im using as paladins i.e the ones next to brionne who have they're heraldry displayed in the book inherit they're coat of arms directly from theyre father but have theyre own crest which shows what they did to complete they're errant. sorry if this doesnt help but i hope it gives u some ideas ingund ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Somebodyorother - 2010/11/29 02:36 _____________________________________

Hey I like that. I didn't even really consider using colors that way. I just figured they were a personal choice of the knight, but tying them in with family is brilliant! Do you find that your army colors match too much though? A father with 5 sons and 3 grandsons is 6 knights & 3 errants. With my original idea that was a unit of mixed color knights with some bearing similar to identical devices. But with the color tie-in I could devote family members to other units (for the mixed color look) while bulking up my army fluff at the same time. I'm going to have to take a deeper look at my painting and hearldry plans now. Gee thanks. ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Benedictus - 2010/11/29 03:04 _____________________________________

While historically cadency wasn't used too much because it could get confusing, I think it's a fantastic idea on the tabletop. I will only be doing it for the Champion of my KotR (eldest son), so I'm luckier in not having these issues. It may be difficult to differentiate in 28mm scale, but remember that the eldest son of an eldest son (.i. a grandson) uses a label, just slightly different from that of his father (the eldest son). The wiki article to which you linked describes it in detail: The eldest son of an eldest son uses a label of five points. Other grandchildren combine the brisure of their father with the relevant brisure of their own, which would in a short number of generations lead to confusion (because it allows an uncle and nephew to have the same cadency mark) and complexity (because of an accumulation of cadency marks to show, for example, the fifth son of a third son of a second son). However, in practice cadency marks are not much used in England and, even when they are, it is rare to see more than one or, at most, two of them on a coat of arms. This would get very complicated, very quickly, so I would only have a knight or two here or there to reflect this practiceotherwise your regiments would look muddled. Alternatively, because the Bretonnian caparison has so many shields, you could reflect the family tree there. The knight's actual shield has the complicated heraldry with cadency and such, while his barding-shields display the simple heraldic patterns of the head of his family (father/grandfather/etc). The problem with quartering or halving heraldry from that of the head of the family is- why isn't the heraldry of the head quartered? Does one inherit the 'pure' heraldry, and lose the personalised half/quarter? It doesn't gel for me. I like the idea of most Men-at-Arms being from the Lord, with a few from each other landed knight. How does the lack of a unified colour scheme make the final unit look? ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/29 06:17 Forums - The Round Table of Bretonnia

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Ok, thanks for all the ideas Gentlemen! Having spent hours looking into this I have finally settled on a scheme that combines Bretonnian lore with and a feudal (historical) setting. Each Knight that has earned their spurs (all above KE) will have their own colours. The KE will wear the colours of their fathers with an insignia in the top right of their shields. This insignia will be of my choosing rather than the traditional label, crescent, mullet, etc.. The small black shield (1st son) or fleur-de-lis (2nd son), etc. from the transfer sheet (precisely which mark for which son is yet to be resolved definitively). The idea being that once a KE proves himself in battle he will receive a shield that suits him. I.e., killing a dragon would land him a fine-looking dragon shield! :) This means that Knights whose sons have proven themselves and earned fiefs of their own can end up having a son with a different shield entirely, and each shield contains a back-story. Fluff-wise, this gives me an excellent backdrop for my (now massive) project of planning, mapping and organizing my March. On the tabletop this will mean that my KE will visibly belong to one of the noble families! (Once they gain their own shield, they are considered to start a new noble family) I like the idea of most Men-at-Arms being from the Lord, with a few from each other landed knight. How does the lack of a unified colour scheme make the final unit look? I'm looking forward to finding this out as well! In my army, each Knight is expected to provide 16 Men at Arms, 16 Bows or 5 MY. These will then be building blocks for bigger units. I can imagine it being pretty epic on the field, especially if you put more than one banner in each unit! :) ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Benedictus - 2010/11/29 08:56 _____________________________________

Ah, I just remembered- the 5th edition Bretonnian book had notes on what heraldic devices mean in the Warhammer Fantasy setting. I don't think these are super canon any longer, but if you get your hands on it you may develop inspiration.

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Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/29 11:35 _____________________________________

Ah yes, I remember seeing something about that in an old Bretonnian book at the shop here. Will have to look into it some more. I'm guessing it is sort of based on historical "meanings" of devices? ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Benedictus - 2010/11/29 15:06 _____________________________________

Sort of. Various crosses mean 'fought undead'; monsters mean slain that monster; eagles mean defeated an imperial knight; star means defeated a wizard. That sort of thing. ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/29 16:22 _____________________________________

Ah, cool! At the moment I have been looking at similar information available on the net and devised back stories for my lords: very fun indeed! :) The best thing about upgrading KEs to KotR is that if a KE does something spectacular in a game I can make a new KotR for him, with shield and all to reflect an in-game event. Then just make sure that the KEs Forums - The Round Table of Bretonnia

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Father has a new son come of age to take the place of the original KE :D. Anyway, will beg, borrow or steal a 5th edition book soon for comparison and inspiration! :) ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Ingund Of Brionne - 2010/11/29 19:30 _____________________________________

hi me again! i have the 5th edition book and i was wondering am i allowed to post a scan of it or would i have to email it to u? not sure where copy right stands on that one :S ur yh, i have quite a peasant themed tiny army at the moment, so I have about 9 knights 4 of whom are heroes.... so yh doesnt effect me yet, all my peasants have my lord's black and white heraldry. I'm a bit odd, i don't like having numerous different shield designs on the different shields on the knight but im limiting my colours like in the army book, so colours shouldnt look to samey. hope ive helped Ingund ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Guy des Bontemps - 2010/11/30 07:17 _____________________________________

Sir Illiam, The attached (hopefully) PDF file contains examples of how the marks of Cadency, or Brisures as they are known in heraldry, can be used to Difference the coats of arms of the male descendants of a family. Even complicated lines of descendancy such as the 3rd son of the 1st son's 2nd son can be accomplished using this method. :P http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/images/fbfiles/files/Cadency.pdf I hope this may be of some help to you. :) Sir Guy ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Guy des Bontemps - 2010/11/30 08:29 _____________________________________

Apologies for a second consecutive post. :blush: The following PDF file contains a lineage diagram that shows how the Cadency is used to Difference the arms of the male descendants in a family, using the heraldry from the previous PDF posted by me. http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/images/fbfiles/files/Cadency___Descendancy.pdf I hope this makes things a bit clearer. :) Sir Guy ============================================================================

Re:Cadency Posted by Sir Illiam of Quenelles - 2010/11/30 16:19 _____________________________________

I've managed to look into the 5th edition book now and found some inspiration for back stories from the description of symbolism therein, thanks for the tip, Benedictus! And also, thanks for the kind offers of scanning the relevant pages, but I am fine for now with my access to the fifth book. Forums - The Round Table of Bretonnia

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And those pdfs look great, Sir Guy! Even if I may not end up using the exact scheme detailed, I certainly like the idea of decorating the mark of cadency themselves with further markings for each generation. Hopefully, however, I have circumvented such a prospect through granting my Knights their own shields when they gain their spurs and rise to the rank of KotR! ============================================================================

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